So far OT ..... DVD+R v DVD-R ... What's the difference??

[Daniel70]

I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but
then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)

Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

(Note ... I'm not discussing R v RW, just the -/+.)

Back in the day (70's/80's), I used to do some Digital work where 'they'
talked about Positive Logic (Ones = +5V, Zeros = Zero volts) and
Negative Logic (Ones = Zero Volts and Zeros = +5V or even Ones = -5V and
Zeros = Zero Volts), so I can understand/accept that there are
differences ..... but with DVDs??

On a +R DVD, are the 'Ones' high points on the disk whilst on a -R DVD
are the 'ones' the low points on the disk?? (Or, rather than 'highs' and
'lows', is it a case of the orientations of the 'North Poles' and 'South
Poles' of the Domains??)

[Carlos E. R.]

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but
then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??
(Note ... I'm not discussing R v RW, just the -/+.)
Back in the day (70's/80's), I used to do some Digital work where 'they'
talked about Positive Logic (Ones = +5V, Zeros = Zero volts) and
Negative Logic (Ones = Zero Volts and Zeros = +5V or even Ones = -5V and
Zeros = Zero Volts), so I can understand/accept that there are
differences ..... but with DVDs??
On a +R DVD, are the 'Ones' high points on the disk whilst on a -R DVD
are the 'ones' the low points on the disk?? (Or, rather than 'highs' and
'lows', is it a case of the orientations of the 'North Poles' and 'South
Poles' of the Domains??)

I don't remember, but I investigated the issue at the time, and the
boxes I have are +R

There was a site that discussed the pros and cons of archival quality
DVDs [...] found them.

<https://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media.htm>
<https://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2006/10/30/how-to-choose-cddvd-archival-media/>

[s|b]

Post by Daniel70
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

The main difference between DVD-R+ and DVD-R- formats lies in the
recording technology and how the discs handle data.

DVD-R (minus):
Developed by the DVD Forum.
Uses a pre-grooved spiral for writing data, and the laser writes
data in the grooves.
More compatible with older DVD players and drives.
Generally considered the more "universal" format, especially in
standalone DVD players.

DVD+R (plus):
Developed by the DVD+RW Alliance.
Uses a different writing technique that provides better error
management.
The writing process can be more efficient, which could result in
slightly faster burning speeds and improved quality in some cases.
Some newer devices might support DVD+R better, as the technology
offers more advanced features like Better error correction.

Compatibility:

DVD-R discs are generally more compatible with older players, while
DVD+R discs may have better support in newer models.
Both formats are compatible with most modern DVD drives, though
sometimes you may encounter issues with older hardware when using DVD+R.

Other minor differences:

DVD+R offers a feature called Lossless Linking, which allows it to
handle burning data in a more efficient manner, leading to fewer
potential errors.
DVD-R is often considered slightly more stable in terms of long-term
storage.

In summary, while both formats serve similar purposes, DVD+R generally
has a technical edge with features like error correction, whereas DVD-R
might be slightly more universally compatible.

(Thank you, ChatGPT.)

[Daniel70]

Post by s|b

Post by Daniel70
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

The main difference between DVD-R+ and DVD-R- formats lies in the
recording technology and how the discs handle data.
Developed by the DVD Forum. Uses a pre-grooved
*spiral* for writing data, and the laser writes data in the grooves.

"spiral"?? Old Records, sure, but I thought CDs/DVDs had multiple actual
rings/tracks!!

[Daniel70]

Post by Daniel70

Post by s|b

Post by Daniel70
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

The main difference between DVD-R+ and DVD-R- formats lies in the
recording technology and how the discs handle data.
    Developed by the DVD Forum. Uses a pre-grooved
*spiral* for writing data, and the laser writes data in the grooves.

"spiral"?? Old Records, sure, but I thought CDs/DVDs had multiple actual
rings/tracks!!

(...Or am I remembering back to Floppies being multiple concentric
tracks rather than CDs/DVDs?? ;-( )

[Dan Purgert]

Post by Daniel70

Post by s|b

Post by Daniel70
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

The main difference between DVD-R+ and DVD-R- formats lies in the
recording technology and how the discs handle data.
Developed by the DVD Forum. Uses a pre-grooved
*spiral* for writing data, and the laser writes data in the grooves.

"spiral"?? Old Records, sure, but I thought CDs/DVDs had multiple actual
rings/tracks!!

Yes and no. The data starts at where-ever "ring" near the center, but
after that, it just steps over as it reads (ultimately following a long
spiral).

It's not the same as magnetic media that used discrete cylinders.

[Paul]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Daniel70
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

The main difference between DVD-R+ and DVD-R- formats lies in the recording technology and how the discs handle data.
    Developed by the DVD Forum. Uses a pre-grooved
*spiral* for writing data, and the laser writes data in the grooves.

"spiral"?? Old Records, sure, but I thought CDs/DVDs had multiple actual
rings/tracks!!

There are actually two different kinds of DVD.

Most DVD types are spiral. It is one long 4.7GB track.

However, DVD-RAM uses concentric circles. The article says it is hard-sectored
by having marks on the disc for synchronization (like a write-splice in a sense).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-RAM

"DVD-RAMs were originally solely sold in disc caddy cartridges;
recent DVD recorders can work with discs either with or without a cartridge,"

A lot of people have gone through life, without ever
seeing one of those. You are more likely to have
seen an M-O media (magneto-optical) cartridge than a DVD-RAM.
Artists and people doing adverts in Illustrator,
are more likely to use M-O for storage.

The drive next to me, has this:

GH22LP20 22X drive

DVD-ROM (SL/DL) read
DVD-R/-RW read/write
DVD-R DL read/write
DVD-RAM (V2.0 or higher) read/write <=== can handle raw disc, just not the cart
DVD-Video (CSS Compliant) read
DVD+R/+RW read/write
DVD+R DL read/write
CD-R/-RW read/write
CD-ROM read
CD-DA (DAE) read
LightScribe write

Paul

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Paul
A lot of people have gone through life, without ever
seeing one of those. You are more likely to have
seen an M-O media (magneto-optical) cartridge than a DVD-RAM.
Artists and people doing adverts in Illustrator,
are more likely to use M-O for storage.
GH22LP20 22X drive
DVD-ROM (SL/DL) read
DVD-R/-RW read/write
DVD-R DL read/write
DVD-RAM (V2.0 or higher) read/write <=== can handle raw disc, just not the cart
DVD-Video (CSS Compliant) read
DVD+R/+RW read/write
DVD+R DL read/write
CD-R/-RW read/write
CD-ROM read
CD-DA (DAE) read
LightScribe write

How did you get the list? I seem to recall a program in Linux that would
obtain it, but I don't remember.

[Paul]

Post by Paul
A lot of people have gone through life, without ever
seeing one of those. You are more likely to have
seen an M-O media (magneto-optical) cartridge than a DVD-RAM.
Artists and people doing adverts in Illustrator,
are more likely to use M-O for storage.
GH22LP20  22X drive
DVD-ROM (SL/DL)            read
DVD-R/-RW                  read/write
DVD-R  DL                  read/write
DVD-RAM (V2.0 or higher)   read/write  <=== can handle raw disc, just not the cart
DVD-Video (CSS Compliant)  read
DVD+R/+RW                  read/write
DVD+R  DL                  read/write
CD-R/-RW                   read/write
CD-ROM                     read
CD-DA (DAE)                read
LightScribe                     write

How did you get the list? I seem to recall a program in Linux that would obtain it, but I don't remember.

You'd be surprised how hard it is to get that info :-)

I got it off the back of the box.

I was going to OCR it, but reordering the unformatted lines,
it was faster to just type the stuff in. It's the computer
way, doncha know (computer recipe too hard, resort to
chisel and stone tablet).

*******

On one occasion, I wanted to know what
software was bundled with a particular DVD drive.
I had to drive to the store and read the box, because
no web site had the information, and only limited pictures
of the box were available. The manufacturer web site did *not*
have the information.

*******

There was a Nero Infotool that used to give some info.
There might have been a second tool like that, but it has
been quite a while since the topic has come up.

There is a picture of Nero Infotool here. It was actually written
by an independent dev outside Nero and bundled as freeware. You could
download it off the Nero FTP site, at least for a while, gratis.

https://whatsoftware.com/do-you-know-your-cd-or-dvd-drive-burning-capabilities/

Apparently IMGBurn has a Device Capabilities pane.

I don't really know where that information is stored, and
how you access it. It appears that not ever dev is a
success at a job like this. It takes multiple attempts and
quite a bit of work, to get your tool to output the same info
as the other tools. It's almost as hard as writing
a "listdir.exe" for NTFS :-) Which is a bastard.

Paul

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Paul

Post by Paul
A lot of people have gone through life, without ever
seeing one of those. You are more likely to have
seen an M-O media (magneto-optical) cartridge than a DVD-RAM.
Artists and people doing adverts in Illustrator,
are more likely to use M-O for storage.
GH22LP20  22X drive
DVD-ROM (SL/DL)            read
DVD-R/-RW                  read/write
DVD-R  DL                  read/write
DVD-RAM (V2.0 or higher)   read/write  <=== can handle raw disc, just not the cart
DVD-Video (CSS Compliant)  read
DVD+R/+RW                  read/write
DVD+R  DL                  read/write
CD-R/-RW                   read/write
CD-ROM                     read
CD-DA (DAE)                read
LightScribe                     write

How did you get the list? I seem to recall a program in Linux that would obtain it, but I don't remember.

You'd be surprised how hard it is to get that info :-)
I got it off the back of the box.

LOL :-)

Post by Paul
I was going to OCR it, but reordering the unformatted lines,
it was faster to just type the stuff in. It's the computer
way, doncha know (computer recipe too hard, resort to
chisel and stone tablet).
*******

Reminds me. Yesterday night I was reading in bed "The daughters of Cain"
by Colin Dexter in my Kobo libra ebook reader. The chapters in this
particular book are preceded by a box with some Latin saying, maybe
poetry. I can not read Latin, I have forgotten what I learned of it. So
I took my phone, opened the translator app, tapped the camera icon, and
pointed to it.

The app translated the text, in the same appearance as the photo. Same
font. The letters wobble as my hand trembled a bit.

Amazing.

It appears as an actual photo/video with the letters appropriately
replaced with letters in my language. Seemingly as if the ebook was in
Spanish.

Post by Paul
On one occasion, I wanted to know what
software was bundled with a particular DVD drive.
I had to drive to the store and read the box, because
no web site had the information, and only limited pictures
of the box were available. The manufacturer web site did *not*
have the information.

{chuckle}

Post by Paul
*******
There was a Nero Infotool that used to give some info.
There might have been a second tool like that, but it has
been quite a while since the topic has come up.
There is a picture of Nero Infotool here. It was actually written
by an independent dev outside Nero and bundled as freeware. You could
download it off the Nero FTP site, at least for a while, gratis.
https://whatsoftware.com/do-you-know-your-cd-or-dvd-drive-burning-capabilities/
Apparently IMGBurn has a Device Capabilities pane.
I don't really know where that information is stored, and
how you access it. It appears that not ever dev is a
success at a job like this. It takes multiple attempts and
quite a bit of work, to get your tool to output the same info
as the other tools. It's almost as hard as writing
a "listdir.exe" for NTFS :-) Which is a bastard.
Paul

As it is a long time since I had to do this, maybe I also copied from
the box and I have forgotten :-D

Mine is a Blue-Ray writer, though.

[Paul]

I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the 'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??
(Note ... I'm not discussing R v RW, just the -/+.)
Back in the day (70's/80's), I used to do some Digital work where 'they' talked about Positive Logic (Ones = +5V, Zeros = Zero volts) and Negative Logic (Ones = Zero Volts and Zeros = +5V or even Ones = -5V and Zeros = Zero Volts), so I can understand/accept that there are differences ..... but with DVDs??
On a +R DVD, are the 'Ones' high points on the disk whilst on a -R DVD are the 'ones' the low points on the disk?? (Or, rather than 'highs' and 'lows', is it a case of the orientations of the 'North Poles' and 'South Poles' of the Domains??)

The tracking groove has a different encoding.

It is the loss of the tracking groove (to keep the heads over the spiral groove),
that determines when the media cannot be read. Generally speaking, the error correction
is so powerful, it can correct at "10^4 error rate", and even badly burned media
can kinda be read.

It is when the groove cannot be tracked, that the DVD drive "goes nuts"
and the interface tends to stop responding properly. For example, maybe
it ignores the button press on the front, to open the tray, if the
tracking is not working.

I had a Memorex disc once, which was damn close to transparent, and
there were no chemicals inside the polycarbonate sandwich. I had to use
a paper clip to get the disc out of the drive, the drive was that nuts.
The microprocessor inside the drive was insistent that it was going
to find that groove and lock to it, and it wasn't going to pay
attention to any button pushes.

*******

One of the formats, is ever so slightly more reliable than the other format.
But if the contrasting materials are all gone, it does not matter. Modern
media is not really all that wonderful, but it does not fail like the
Memorex disc did.

For example, there might not be any more Ritek. Maybe there is
CMC. My drive has trouble burning CMC -- you can tell the laser
is running at high power, as if there isn't a recognizable media
tag with burning instructions. Those were "Philips" brand, but
instead of Ritek, the discs were CMC. That's what the end of
the optical media era brings us, is discs that don't burn as nice.

Does anyone care ? Well, they can't care really, because Verbatim is
only going to carry one of the two formats, optical media is in decline,
and so on.

There used to be a web site which discussed the groove formats,
for the enthusiast to study.

*******

<CoPilot> [Since most of the description was wrong, I just collected breadcrumbs]

**DVD-R**: This format uses a technology called **groove modulation**
**DVD+R**: In contrast, DVD+R uses a method known as **wobble modulation**

*******

Recordable disc radial grooves are sinusoidal bending mode (snake-like). This structure is called wobble.
There are two wobble frequency for recordable CD, DVD-R(W) uses 140.6KHz, while the DVD+R(W) uses 817.4 KHz.
The wobble loads the information of the recordable CD. It can provide tracking information and speed information.
The addressing information varies according to formats.

- ATIP (Absolute Time in Pre-groove), which is to concoct the time into the wobble.
- ADIP (Address in Pre-groove, which is also to conduct the time code into wobble.

https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/media/2566-how-wobble-groove.html

"The grooves of DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R and DVD+RW are spiral shaped.

The DVD-R and DVD-RW are set with LPP (land pre pit) with addressing information.
DVD+R(W) have a higher wobble frequency than that of DVD-R(W).
The addressing information is loaded on the Phase Modulation of groove, so it is also called ADIP.

The rut of pre-grooves DVD-R and DVD-RW is concocted with ATIP and the address information is
provided by the LPP. The pre pit shall offer the amplitude peak of the wobble signal of the groove.

The pre-groove of DVD+R and DVD+RW using a ADIP way with information loaded on the phase modulation of the groove.

*******

The phase modulation of DVD+R might be the more reliable method.

Therefore, Verbatim should sell DVD-R discs :-)

It looks like in my last purchase, I got a short stack of +R dual layer (for Ubuntu or Windows)
and a taller stack of -R single layer for everything else. And they were probably
both Verbatim, as there has been much consolidation in the industry,
and abandonment of production.

The Ritek was pretty funny. At one time, you would get Maxell brand boxes,
and they had Ritek inside. Ritek mainly made bare media (stacks of discs no wrapping).
It was up to Fujitsu or Maxell to wrap the discs in a plastic cake box and
put a paper label around the circumference.

When the industry fell apart, the "packagers" quit the industry instantly.
suddenly, Ritek discovered there was no Maxell or Fujitsu to take containers
of discs and wrap them in pretty cake boxes.

The last loads of Ritek arrived on our fine shores, bereft of packaging.
Some idiot at the store, wrapped 100 disc piles in Saran Wrap :-)
That was some of the last Ritek I ever saw. The next year, even the Saran Wrap
version was gone :-) It's a damn shame, but there it is.

Paul

[Herbert Kleebauer]

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but

A 4 TByte 2.5" USB Disk costs about 100€ (10 Cent for 4 GByte)
A 256 GByte USB flash drive costs about 15€ (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
A DVD-R costs about 25 Cent (25 Cent for 4 GByte)

So a DVD-R is by far the worst choice.

[Frank Slootweg]

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but

A 4 TByte 2.5" USB Disk costs about 100? (10 Cent for 4 GByte)
A 256 GByte USB flash drive costs about 15? (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
A DVD-R costs about 25 Cent (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
So a DVD-R is by far the worst choice.

That's all very nice, but the PVR will probably only be able to copy
to DVD, but not to an external USB HDD or USB memory stick, etc..

Daniel will correct me, if that's incorrect for his PVR, but that's
the way it is/was for my (Sonly) PVR. Copy-protection, digital rights
management, copyright, author's rights and all that jazz. Yes, silly,
but, at least in my case, fact.

[Rick]

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but

A 4 TByte 2.5" USB Disk costs about 100? (10 Cent for 4 GByte)
A 256 GByte USB flash drive costs about 15? (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
A DVD-R costs about 25 Cent (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
So a DVD-R is by far the worst choice.

That's all very nice, but the PVR will probably only be able to copy
to DVD, but not to an external USB HDD or USB memory stick, etc..
Daniel will correct me, if that's incorrect for his PVR, but that's
the way it is/was for my (Sonly) PVR. Copy-protection, digital rights
management, copyright, author's rights and all that jazz. Yes, silly,
but, at least in my case, fact.

I had a similar issue when I was getting rid of DirecTV. I had a few
"key" programs recorded that I wanted to salvage, so I used a Hauppauge
unit to essentially play the DVR recording and while it played, it
transferred the program via cable to my computer in either .mkv or .mp4
format (can't remember which). The quality was excellent, but the only
downside is having to "play" the video on the DVR as it transferred
which means it takes two hours to transfer a two-hour program.

[Daniel70]

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but

A 4 TByte 2.5" USB Disk costs about 100?    (10 Cent for 4 GByte)
A 256 GByte USB flash drive costs about 15? (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
A DVD-R costs about 25 Cent                 (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
So a DVD-R is by far the worst choice.

   That's all very nice, but the PVR will probably only be able to copy
to DVD, but not to an external USB HDD or USB memory stick, etc..
   Daniel will correct me, if that's incorrect for his PVR, but that's
the way it is/was for my (Sonly) PVR. Copy-protection, digital rights
management, copyright, author's rights and all that jazz. Yes, silly,
but, at least in my case, fact.

I had a similar issue when I was getting rid of DirecTV.  I had a few
"key" programs recorded that I wanted to salvage, so I used a Hauppauge
unit to essentially play the DVR recording and while it played, it
transferred the program via cable to my computer in either .mkv or .mp4
format (can't remember which).  The quality was excellent, but the only
downside is having to "play" the video on the DVR as it transferred
which means it takes two hours to transfer a two-hour program.

.... but, Rick, doing it that way, could you pause (assuming you were
actually watching at the time of transfer) the recording whilst any
Commercials were playing??

[Daniel70]

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with
programs I'll want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about
coping some of the 'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying
a spool of DVD's.... but

A 4 TByte 2.5" USB Disk costs about 100? (10 Cent for 4 GByte)
A 256 GByte USB flash drive costs about 15? (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
A DVD-R costs about 25 Cent (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
So a DVD-R is by far the worst choice.

That's all very nice, but the PVR will probably only be able to copy
to DVD, but not to an external USB HDD or USB memory stick, etc..
Daniel will correct me,

O.K., if you want me to, :-P ....

My PVR certainly has USB connectors on the back panel and I have,
previously, had a USB (5GB) stick plugged in.

This is how I was going to transfer the files from the PVR to my old
Laptop as it has a writeable DVD drive in it.

Post by Frank Slootweg
if that's incorrect for his PVR, but that's the way it is/was for my
(Sonly) PVR.

"(Sonly)"?? Is that a typo, Frank?? ;-P

Post by Frank Slootweg
Copy-protection, digital rights management, copyright, author's
rights and all that jazz. Yes, silly, but, at least in my case,
fact.

--
Daniel70

[Frank Slootweg]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with
programs I'll want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about
coping some of the 'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying
a spool of DVD's.... but

A 4 TByte 2.5" USB Disk costs about 100? (10 Cent for 4 GByte)
A 256 GByte USB flash drive costs about 15? (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
A DVD-R costs about 25 Cent (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
So a DVD-R is by far the worst choice.

That's all very nice, but the PVR will probably only be able to copy
to DVD, but not to an external USB HDD or USB memory stick, etc..
Daniel will correct me,

O.K., if you want me to, :-P ....
My PVR certainly has USB connectors on the back panel and I have,
previously, had a USB (5GB) stick plugged in.
This is how I was going to transfer the files from the PVR to my old
Laptop as it has a writeable DVD drive in it.

But did you actually *do* it and *succeed*?

For example, I have two PVRs (one for analog TV, one for digital
(DVB-C)), which also have USB sockets, but they are only for playback
*from* a USB memory-stick, not to copy *to* it. The reason for this is,
as I wrote and quoted below, "Copy-protection, ...".

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
if that's incorrect for his PVR, but that's the way it is/was for my
(Sonly) PVR.

"(Sonly)"?? Is that a typo, Frank?? ;-P

Be glad. You got an extra character for free. Mostly my typos are
missing or incorrect characters.

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
Copy-protection, digital rights management, copyright, author's
rights and all that jazz. Yes, silly, but, at least in my case,
fact.

[Daniel70]

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with
programs I'll want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about
coping some of the 'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying
a spool of DVD's.... but

A 4 TByte 2.5" USB Disk costs about 100? (10 Cent for 4 GByte)
A 256 GByte USB flash drive costs about 15? (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
A DVD-R costs about 25 Cent (25 Cent for 4 GByte)
So a DVD-R is by far the worst choice.

That's all very nice, but the PVR will probably only be able to copy
to DVD, but not to an external USB HDD or USB memory stick, etc..
Daniel will correct me,

O.K., if you want me to, :-P ....
My PVR certainly has USB connectors on the back panel and I have,
previously, had a USB (5GB) stick plugged in.
This is how I was going to transfer the files from the PVR to my old
Laptop as it has a writeable DVD drive in it.

But did you actually *do* it and *succeed*?

Yes ..... but no!!

This afternoon, I switched off my PVR (just to be sure!), inserted my
USB drive into the appropriate socket on the PVR's back panel, turned on
the PVR and went looking!!

When I saw, in the PVR settings, the "Safely remove the USB drive."
setting was still greyed out, I figured I'd done something wrong ... So
PVR off, USB drive out, tried inserting it elsewhere (fail), re-inserted
the USB Drive in the same socket .... and Success!!

So I copied a program ('QI', British half hour 'Comedy' program) from
the PVR's HD to the USB Drive, ejected the USB Drive (i.e. 'Safely
remove ....'), booted this Win 11 Desktop, inserted the USB Drive, File
Explorer, double clicked on the big file titled '000' (116MB+) which
started up Media Player ..... only to find out my Win-11 has no MPEG2
codec/whatever ("Checking codec availability. We're checking if we have
a codec for this item."). ;-(

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Daniel70
So I copied a program ('QI', British half hour 'Comedy' program) from
the PVR's HD to the USB Drive, ejected the USB Drive (i.e. 'Safely
remove ....'), booted this Win 11 Desktop, inserted the USB Drive, File
Explorer, double clicked on the big file titled '000' (116MB+) which
started up Media Player ..... only to find out my Win-11 has no MPEG2
codec/whatever ("Checking codec availability. We're checking if we have
a codec for this item."). ;-(

Install VLC.

[Daniel70]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Daniel70
So I copied a program ('QI', British half hour 'Comedy' program) from
the PVR's HD to the USB Drive, ejected the USB Drive (i.e. 'Safely
remove ....'), booted this Win 11 Desktop, inserted the USB Drive,
File Explorer, double clicked on the big file titled '000' (116MB+)
which started up Media Player ..... only to find out my Win-11 has no
MPEG2 codec/whatever ("Checking codec availability. We're checking if
we have a codec for this item."). ;-(

Install VLC.

Maybe .... after I install Linux ... Dual boot!

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Daniel70
So I copied a program ('QI', British half hour 'Comedy' program) from
the PVR's HD to the USB Drive, ejected the USB Drive (i.e. 'Safely
remove ....'), booted this Win 11 Desktop, inserted the USB Drive,
File Explorer, double clicked on the big file titled '000' (116MB+)
which started up Media Player ..... only to find out my Win-11 has no
MPEG2 codec/whatever ("Checking codec availability. We're checking if
we have a codec for this item."). ;-(

Install VLC.

Maybe .... after I install Linux ... Dual boot!

It doesn't matter Linux or Windows. Just install VLC.

[Daniel70]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Daniel70

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Daniel70
So I copied a program ('QI', British half hour 'Comedy' program)
from the PVR's HD to the USB Drive, ejected the USB Drive (i.e.
'Safely remove ....'), booted this Win 11 Desktop, inserted the USB
Drive, File Explorer, double clicked on the big file titled '000'
(116MB+) which started up Media Player ..... only to find out my
Win-11 has no MPEG2 codec/whatever ("Checking codec availability.
We're checking if we have a codec for this item."). ;-(

Install VLC.

Maybe .... after I install Linux ... Dual boot!

It doesn't matter Linux or Windows. Just install VLC.

Installed VLC in Win 11

https://get.videolan.org/vlc/3.0.21/win64/vlc-3.0.21-win64.exe#google_vignette

ran VLC i.e. got the pretty Orange/White Traffic cone, selected 'Media',
"Open File", located my file on the USB drive, clicked on it ...... and
the Traffic cone stayed put!!

What might I be doing wrong??

Note the file that was copied from PVR drive to USB drive was called
'000' .... note no three character file type on the name!!

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Daniel70

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Daniel70
So I copied a program ('QI', British half hour 'Comedy' program)
from the PVR's HD to the USB Drive, ejected the USB Drive (i.e.
'Safely remove ....'), booted this Win 11 Desktop, inserted the USB
Drive, File Explorer, double clicked on the big file titled
'000' (116MB+) which started up Media Player ..... only to find out
my Win-11 has no MPEG2 codec/whatever ("Checking codec
availability. We're checking if we have a codec for this item."). ;-(

Install VLC.

Maybe .... after I install Linux ... Dual boot!

It doesn't matter Linux or Windows. Just install VLC.

Installed VLC in Win 11
https://get.videolan.org/vlc/3.0.21/win64/vlc-3.0.21-
win64.exe#google_vignette
ran VLC i.e. got the pretty Orange/White Traffic cone, selected 'Media',
"Open File", located my file on the USB drive, clicked on it ...... and
the Traffic cone stayed put!!
What might I be doing wrong??
Note the file that was copied from PVR drive to USB drive was called
'000' .... note no three character file type on the name!!

On Linux it doesn't matter if there is no extension, I just tried. I
Windows, I can't say. Try with another video that you know that play,
and rename it with no extension, then try again with vlc.

If vlc doesn't play the file, chances are it is not an standard video
file or it is encrypted.

[Paul]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Daniel70

Post by Carlos E.R.

So I copied a program ('QI', British half hour 'Comedy' program) from the PVR's HD to the USB Drive, ejected the USB Drive (i.e. 'Safely remove ....'), booted this Win 11 Desktop, inserted the USB Drive, File Explorer, double clicked on the big file titled '000' (116MB+) which started up Media Player ..... only to find out my Win-11 has no MPEG2 codec/whatever ("Checking codec availability. We're checking if we have a codec for this item."). ;-(

Install VLC.

Maybe .... after I install Linux ... Dual boot!

It doesn't matter Linux or Windows. Just install VLC.

Installed VLC in Win 11
https://get.videolan.org/vlc/3.0.21/win64/vlc-3.0.21-win64.exe#google_vignette
ran VLC i.e. got the pretty Orange/White Traffic cone, selected 'Media', "Open File", located my file on the USB drive, clicked on it ...... and the Traffic cone stayed put!!
What might I be doing wrong??
Note the file that was copied from PVR drive to USB drive was called '000' .... note no three character file type on the name!!

Like VLC, you can have a play with FFMPEG and the three files it carries.
It is a command line program, but the syntax is not too hard for this task.
The download will cost you 54MB or so.

https://ffmpeg.org/download.html

"Windows EXE Files"

"Windows builds from gyan.dev"

https://www.gyan.dev/ffmpeg/builds/

ffmpeg-2025-02-20-git-bc1a3bfd2c-full_build.7z <=== scroll down a bit, static builds with no DLLs needed

Name: ffmpeg-2025-02-20-git-bc1a3bfd2c-full_build.7z
Size: 54,590,618 bytes (52 MiB)
SHA256: D63054733432866D1BD075C9EE0F0859A36391E8638ABC55C3933A143378EAFE

(matches the sha256 link on the page = d63054733432866d1bd075c9ee0f0859a36391e8638abc55c3933a143378eafe )

Now, Windows 11 has libarchive to extend the reach of .cab/.zip support.
Right click, do "open with" "Windows Explorer" will make
a pseudo-folder of the thing. Navigate to the bin\ in there,
and copy out these three files you see in File Explorer

ffmpeg.exe 145,039KB
ffplay.exe 144,891KB
ffprobe.exe 144,906KB

to another place on your hard drive. You don't need to download a copy
of 7ZIP, due to the inclusion of libarchive. Story may be different on Win10.

How would you use these programs ?

For this purpose, move the "000" file to the hard drive folder
where you put the three EXE files. In a command prompt window (you can
use Powershell window and type "cmd.exe" and run that), you can
navigate to your work folder.

cd /d C:\users\daniel\Downloads\FFMPEG

ffplay 000 # This works like a VLC would, relative path is used to find 000

ffprobe 000 # This attempts analysis of the file, the same way the ffplay
# command would attempt analysis.

Here, I will show the salient parts of the ffprobe of my 000 sample file (much output removed):

Input #0, mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2, from '000':
...
Stream #0:0[0x1](eng): Audio: aac (LC) (mp4a / 0x6134706D), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 125 kb/s (default)
...
Stream #0:1[0x2](eng): Video: h264 (High) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p(progressive),
1280x720 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 4869 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 30k tbn (default)

That is a recognizable video track and audio track, so "ffplay" should be able to play it.

If it complains, you can also try:

.\ffplay 000

Help for the command is like this:

ffplay -h

And it includes info like this:

Getting help:
-h -- print basic options
-h long -- print more options
-h full -- print all options (including all format and codec specific options, very long)
-h type=thingy -- (if you know the topic by name already)

It is not a hex editor. And the output is a bit confusing, for example the line with gobs of this junk:

configuration: --enable-gpl --enable-version3 ...

Nevertheless, that line is important, when you're looking for "performance". When
converting video between formats, there are hardware accelerator options that only
work if they were included in the build. And that "big line of garbage" is there
to tell you what got included in the build. For example, on Linux, NVENC and NVDEC
are not included -- but, you can recompile from source and include them yourself.
Ubuntu has excellent package alignment, and rebuilding it should not be traumatic
(and including the flags for the things you want). I know, because I did it when
I wanted to compare the performance of Windows versus Linux (since the video card
does all the work, Linux was faster by 1% or so, there was a measurable diff).

In the case of the above file source, Gyan has already done this part for you,
and NVENC and NVDEC would work... if you had a midrange NVidia card. Some
low end cards, lack the video SIP so the acceleration is not available.

But none of these details are necessary, just to "play 000" kind of thing.
Nothing matters... but that it works. If it says anything about "I don't
see a video file", then the file was encrypted.

Paul

[Java Jive]

Post by Daniel70
So I copied a program ('QI', British half hour 'Comedy' program) from
the PVR's HD to the USB Drive, ejected the USB Drive (i.e. 'Safely
remove ....'), booted this Win 11 Desktop, inserted the USB Drive, File
Explorer, double clicked on the big file titled '000' (116MB+) which
started up Media Player ..... only to find out my Win-11 has no MPEG2
codec/whatever ("Checking codec availability. We're checking if we have
a codec for this item."). ;-(

Try playing it with VLC (you can install it on Windows or Linux).

[Frank Slootweg]

Daniel70 <***@eternal-september.org> wrote:
[...]

Post by Daniel70
This afternoon, I switched off my PVR (just to be sure!), inserted my
USB drive into the appropriate socket on the PVR's back panel, turned on
the PVR and went looking!!
When I saw, in the PVR settings, the "Safely remove the USB drive."
setting was still greyed out, I figured I'd done something wrong ... So
PVR off, USB drive out, tried inserting it elsewhere (fail), re-inserted
the USB Drive in the same socket .... and Success!!
So I copied a program ('QI', British half hour 'Comedy' program) from
the PVR's HD to the USB Drive,

Good on you! I didn't expect the PVR to allow to copy videos from its
HDD to external media, but luckily I was wrong.

Post by Daniel70
ejected the USB Drive (i.e. 'Safely
remove ....'), booted this Win 11 Desktop, inserted the USB Drive, File
Explorer, double clicked on the big file titled '000' (116MB+) which
started up Media Player ..... only to find out my Win-11 has no MPEG2
codec/whatever ("Checking codec availability. We're checking if we have
a codec for this item."). ;-(

Others have advised VLC, which is probably you best bet, but Windows
11 also has 'Windows Media Player Legacy', so try that, if you haven't
already done so. (Just right click the file and select 'Open with'.)

[Daniel70]

Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]

Post by Daniel70
This afternoon, I switched off my PVR (just to be sure!), inserted my
USB drive into the appropriate socket on the PVR's back panel, turned on
the PVR and went looking!!
When I saw, in the PVR settings, the "Safely remove the USB drive."
setting was still greyed out, I figured I'd done something wrong ... So
PVR off, USB drive out, tried inserting it elsewhere (fail), re-inserted
the USB Drive in the same socket .... and Success!!
So I copied a program ('QI', British half hour 'Comedy' program) from
the PVR's HD to the USB Drive,

Good on you! I didn't expect the PVR to allow to copy videos from its
HDD to external media, but luckily I was wrong.

Post by Daniel70
ejected the USB Drive (i.e. 'Safely
remove ....'), booted this Win 11 Desktop, inserted the USB Drive, File
Explorer, double clicked on the big file titled '000' (116MB+) which
started up Media Player ..... only to find out my Win-11 has no MPEG2
codec/whatever ("Checking codec availability. We're checking if we have
a codec for this item."). ;-(

Others have advised VLC, which is probably you best bet, but Windows
11 also has 'Windows Media Player Legacy', so try that, if you haven't
already done so. (Just right click the file and select 'Open with'.)

Installed WMPL, pointed to the video on the USB stick ....
interestingly, WMPL listed the file as "000 0 seconds Unrated"!

Zweo Seconds?? No wonder it doesn't play!

[Daniel70]

Post by Daniel70

[...]

Post by Daniel70
This afternoon, I switched off my PVR (just to be sure!), inserted my
USB drive into the appropriate socket on the PVR's back panel, turned on
the PVR and went looking!!
When I saw, in the PVR settings, the "Safely remove the USB drive."
setting was still greyed out, I figured I'd done something wrong ... So
PVR off, USB drive out, tried inserting it elsewhere (fail), re-inserted
the USB Drive in the same socket .... and Success!!
So I copied a program ('QI', British half hour 'Comedy' program) from
the PVR's HD to the USB Drive,

   Good on you! I didn't expect the PVR to allow to copy videos from its
HDD to external media, but luckily I was wrong.

Post by Daniel70
                 ejected the USB Drive (i.e. 'Safely
remove ....'), booted this Win 11 Desktop, inserted the USB Drive, File
Explorer, double clicked on the big file titled '000' (116MB+) which
started up Media Player ..... only to find out my Win-11 has no MPEG2
codec/whatever ("Checking codec availability. We're checking if we have
a codec for this item."). ;-(

   Others have advised VLC, which is probably you best bet, but Windows
11 also has 'Windows Media Player Legacy', so try that, if you haven't
already done so. (Just right click the file and select 'Open with'.)

Installed WMPL, pointed to the video on the USB stick ....
interestingly, WMPL listed the file as "000 0 seconds Unrated"!
Zweo Seconds?? No wonder it doesn't play!

Woops!! Should have read "Zero Seconds?? No wonder it doesn't play!"

[Paul]

Post by Daniel70

[...]

Post by Daniel70
This afternoon, I switched off my PVR (just to be sure!), inserted my
USB drive into the appropriate socket on the PVR's back panel, turned on
the PVR and went looking!!
When I saw, in the PVR settings, the "Safely remove the USB drive."
setting was still greyed out, I figured I'd done something wrong ... So
PVR off, USB drive out, tried inserting it elsewhere (fail), re-inserted
the USB Drive in the same socket .... and Success!!
So I copied a program ('QI', British half hour 'Comedy' program) from
the PVR's HD to the USB Drive,

   Good on you! I didn't expect the PVR to allow to copy videos from its
HDD to external media, but luckily I was wrong.

Post by Daniel70
                 ejected the USB Drive (i.e. 'Safely
remove ....'), booted this Win 11 Desktop, inserted the USB Drive, File
Explorer, double clicked on the big file titled '000' (116MB+) which
started up Media Player ..... only to find out my Win-11 has no MPEG2
codec/whatever ("Checking codec availability. We're checking if we have
a codec for this item."). ;-(

   Others have advised VLC, which is probably you best bet, but Windows
11 also has 'Windows Media Player Legacy', so try that, if you haven't
already done so. (Just right click the file and select 'Open with'.)

Installed WMPL, pointed to the video on the USB stick .... interestingly, WMPL listed the file as "000 0 seconds Unrated"!
Zweo Seconds?? No wonder it doesn't play!

Woops!! Should have read "Zero Seconds?? No wonder it doesn't play!"

There are two programs specific to identifying video files. One
program hasn't been updated in more than ten years, while this one
is still supported.

https://www.videohelp.com/software/MediaInfo

Download Portable and other versions

Download MediaInfo 24.12 Portable Windows 64-bit 5MB <=== reasonably small
Win64 Win Portable Portable

When the program starts (from its portable folder), it will first put
up a preference dialog. You can turn off the File Explorer integration
if you want, as that isn't necessary. I had none of the preferences ticked
when I was finished.

Dropping a file onto the open pane of the program, looks like this.
This is a movie close to 3 hours, and it's the BUILD Conference from Microsoft.
It is a valid MP4 file with a sound track. That's what a proper movie detection
should look like.

[Picture]

Loading Image...

That may help you decide whether it is encrypted or not, as
that program cannot decrypt content for you.

Paul

[Frank Slootweg]

[...]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
Others have advised VLC, which is probably you best bet, but Windows
11 also has 'Windows Media Player Legacy', so try that, if you haven't
already done so. (Just right click the file and select 'Open with'.)

Installed WMPL, pointed to the video on the USB stick ....
interestingly, WMPL listed the file as "000 0 seconds Unrated"!
Zweo Seconds?? No wonder it doesn't play!

Huh!? "Installed WMPL,"? Wasn't 'Windows Media Player Legacy' already
on your Windows 11 system? (It was/is on mine.)

Anyway, have you tried to just right-click the file in File Explorer,
select Properties and look at the 'Details' tab? For a normal video
file, File Explorer will mention the Length, Frame width and height,
Data rate, Total bitrate, Frame rate and Audio specs.

If that does not help, the MediaInfo utility mentioned by Paul is
probably your best bet.

[Daniel70]

Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
Others have advised VLC, which is probably you best bet, but Windows
11 also has 'Windows Media Player Legacy', so try that, if you haven't
already done so. (Just right click the file and select 'Open with'.)

Installed WMPL, pointed to the video on the USB stick ....
interestingly, WMPL listed the file as "000 0 seconds Unrated"!
Zweo Seconds?? No wonder it doesn't play!

Huh!? "Installed WMPL,"? Wasn't 'Windows Media Player Legacy' already
on your Windows 11 system? (It was/is on mine.)
Anyway, have you tried to just right-click the file in File Explorer,
select Properties and look at the 'Details' tab? For a normal video
file, File Explorer will mention the Length, Frame width and height,
Data rate, Total bitrate, Frame rate and Audio specs.

General Details
vid000.mp4 (name changed as suggested by others)
Type of file: TS file (.ts)
Open with: Media Player (Button "Change" which gives option to use Media
Player, VLC Media Player, Windows Media Player Legacy, Firefox, Notepad,
Word)
Location: On a sub-directory of my USB Drive
Size: 113MB (118,876,060 bytes)
Size on Disk: 113MB (118,882,304 bytes)
Created: Last Friday
Modified: Last Friday
Accessed: Yesterday

Post by Frank Slootweg
If that does not help, the MediaInfo utility mentioned by Paul is
probably your best bet.

[Paul]

Post by Daniel70

[...]

Post by Daniel70

    Others have advised VLC, which is probably you best bet, but Windows
11 also has 'Windows Media Player Legacy', so try that, if you haven't
already done so. (Just right click the file and select 'Open with'.)

Installed WMPL, pointed to the video on the USB stick ....
interestingly, WMPL listed the file as "000 0 seconds Unrated"!
Zweo Seconds?? No wonder it doesn't play!

   Huh!? "Installed WMPL,"? Wasn't 'Windows Media Player Legacy' already
on your Windows 11 system? (It was/is on mine.)
   Anyway, have you tried to just right-click the file in File Explorer,
select Properties and look at the 'Details' tab? For a normal video
file, File Explorer will mention the Length, Frame width and height,
Data rate, Total bitrate, Frame rate and Audio specs.

General Details
vid000.mp4 (name changed as suggested by others)
Type of file:    TS file (.ts)
Open with:    Media Player (Button "Change" which gives option to use Media Player, VLC Media Player, Windows Media Player Legacy, Firefox, Notepad, Word)
Location: On a sub-directory of my USB Drive
Size:    113MB (118,876,060 bytes)
Size on Disk:    113MB (118,882,304 bytes)
Created: Last Friday
Modified:    Last Friday
Accessed:    Yesterday

   If that does not help, the MediaInfo utility mentioned by Paul is
probably your best bet.

If it was Transport Stream, and the "Type of file" field says .ts
then I would try an extension of .ts and feed it to VLC.

https://recoverit.wondershare.com/video-recovery/what-is-ts-file.html

vid000.ts # It's actually MPEG2, but who knows if this format has a header or not

And this makes sense, because MPEG2 is how TV is transmitted over the airwaves,
and the beauty of Digital Television design, is the possibility of just receiving
the packets and writing them directly to the hard drive in the PVR.

One thing I don't understand, is why nobody mentions ffplay. But if you have
already downloaded VLC, just try that, as that will have most of what
FFMPEG has.

That should be on the order of 59 seconds worth, at a guess.

*******

To calibrate on my end, I can try this.

https://tsduck.io/streams/?name=australia-dttv

https://tsduck.io/streams/australia-dttv/Nine.ts # 600KB/sec , 171.83MB , ~ 5 minute download

Name: Nine.ts
Size: 180,179,388 bytes (171 MiB)
SHA256: 6CC445C0F04BB400A5B373D66D2FB0D132CC5E8CAE89378734E82B396F7CDA49

Unfortunately, it looks like cricket :-) But it plays in VLC.

Sticking that in a hex editor, it does kinda look stream-like. Not a strong
sense of a header in there, although you can (eventually) easily recognize
there is some structure in there. For example, there are a few characters
of Guide Data in the sample, presumably indicating what the next few programs
on Nine would be.

So *IF* you had the available bandwidth, and you were unable to play your
vid000.ts file, then you can practice with that Nine.ts sample and see how
a (known, unencrypted) Transport Stream plays.

From what you've shown so far, there's a chance renaming as "vid000.ts"
is all that is required for it to work.

Paul

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2025-02-27 09:52, Paul wrote:

...

Post by Paul
One thing I don't understand, is why nobody mentions ffplay. But if you have
already downloaded VLC, just try that, as that will have most of what
FFMPEG has.

Unknown to me till you mentioned it. I have installed ffmpeg-3 package,
and ffplay is not included.

This has made me realize that my Linux distro has available ffmpeg-4,
-6, and -7. I don't know what are the differences and whether I should
change to a newer version or which. Perhaps the -6.

[Frank Slootweg]

[...]

Post by Paul

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
Anyway, have you tried to just right-click the file in File Explorer,
select Properties and look at the 'Details' tab? For a normal video
file, File Explorer will mention the Length, Frame width and height,
Data rate, Total bitrate, Frame rate and Audio specs.

General Details
vid000.mp4 (name changed as suggested by others)
Type of file:    TS file (.ts)
Open with:    Media Player (Button "Change" which gives option to use Media Player, VLC Media Player, Windows Media Player Legacy, Firefox, Notepad, Word)
Location: On a sub-directory of my USB Drive
Size:    113MB (118,876,060 bytes)
Size on Disk:    113MB (118,882,304 bytes)
Created: Last Friday
Modified:    Last Friday
Accessed:    Yesterday

Post by Frank Slootweg
   If that does not help, the MediaInfo utility mentioned by Paul is
probably your best bet.

If it was Transport Stream, and the "Type of file" field says .ts
then I would try an extension of .ts and feed it to VLC.
https://recoverit.wondershare.com/video-recovery/what-is-ts-file.html

I don't think it's an actual Transport Stream file. AFAIK, the 'Type
of file:' field in Properties of a file just echoes the *extension*, not
the *content*.

For example, if I rename an actual MP4 file to .ts, Properties says
"Type of file: TS file (.ts)", i.e. matching the extesion, not the
actual content. The thumbnail in File Explorer changes (from showing the
picture) to an Media Player icon. And when open the file, it plays just
fine in Media Player.

So I don't understand why Daniel's vid000.mp4 file would say "Type of
file: TS file (.ts)" in Properties.

Of course I *hope* I'm wrong and that a rename to .ts will solve
Daniel's problem.

[...]

[Paul]

Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]

Post by Paul

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
Anyway, have you tried to just right-click the file in File Explorer,
select Properties and look at the 'Details' tab? For a normal video
file, File Explorer will mention the Length, Frame width and height,
Data rate, Total bitrate, Frame rate and Audio specs.

General Details
vid000.mp4 (name changed as suggested by others)
Type of file:    TS file (.ts)
Open with:    Media Player (Button "Change" which gives option to use Media Player, VLC Media Player, Windows Media Player Legacy, Firefox, Notepad, Word)
Location: On a sub-directory of my USB Drive
Size:    113MB (118,876,060 bytes)
Size on Disk:    113MB (118,882,304 bytes)
Created: Last Friday
Modified:    Last Friday
Accessed:    Yesterday

Post by Frank Slootweg
   If that does not help, the MediaInfo utility mentioned by Paul is
probably your best bet.

If it was Transport Stream, and the "Type of file" field says .ts
then I would try an extension of .ts and feed it to VLC.
https://recoverit.wondershare.com/video-recovery/what-is-ts-file.html

I don't think it's an actual Transport Stream file. AFAIK, the 'Type
of file:' field in Properties of a file just echoes the *extension*, not
the *content*.
For example, if I rename an actual MP4 file to .ts, Properties says
"Type of file: TS file (.ts)", i.e. matching the extesion, not the
actual content. The thumbnail in File Explorer changes (from showing the
picture) to an Media Player icon. And when open the file, it plays just
fine in Media Player.
So I don't understand why Daniel's vid000.mp4 file would say "Type of
file: TS file (.ts)" in Properties.
Of course I *hope* I'm wrong and that a rename to .ts will solve
Daniel's problem.
[...]

Even when the file extension is .mp4, MediaInfo says it is MPEG-ts.
You have to stretch the window nice and wide, as the person who wrote the
program, wasn't too worried about formatting.

[Picture]

Loading Image...

what's neat about this, is the Linux "file" command calls it "Data",
so the structure is irregular enough to not be detected. With no magic bytes,
and (usually) a 1024 byte sniffing range into the file, it would have needed
to read too much of the file to sync up to it. I'm not seeing 4CC codes in
MPEG2, and the "spectrum" when I used the hex editor, I'd never seen that
before. But I could tell instantly it wasn't encrypted, because there
was a bit of text in there that looked like Guide Data. Scrolling through it,
you can see the odd bit of padding added too.

Paul

[Frank Slootweg]

Post by Paul

Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]

Post by Paul

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
Anyway, have you tried to just right-click the file in File Explorer,
select Properties and look at the 'Details' tab? For a normal video
file, File Explorer will mention the Length, Frame width and height,
Data rate, Total bitrate, Frame rate and Audio specs.

General Details
vid000.mp4 (name changed as suggested by others)
Type of file:    TS file (.ts)
Open with:    Media Player (Button "Change" which gives option to use Media Player, VLC Media Player, Windows Media Player Legacy, Firefox, Notepad, Word)
Location: On a sub-directory of my USB Drive
Size:    113MB (118,876,060 bytes)
Size on Disk:    113MB (118,882,304 bytes)
Created: Last Friday
Modified:    Last Friday
Accessed:    Yesterday

Post by Frank Slootweg
   If that does not help, the MediaInfo utility mentioned by Paul is
probably your best bet.

If it was Transport Stream, and the "Type of file" field says .ts
then I would try an extension of .ts and feed it to VLC.
https://recoverit.wondershare.com/video-recovery/what-is-ts-file.html

I don't think it's an actual Transport Stream file. AFAIK, the 'Type
of file:' field in Properties of a file just echoes the *extension*, not
the *content*.
For example, if I rename an actual MP4 file to .ts, Properties says
"Type of file: TS file (.ts)", i.e. matching the extesion, not the
actual content. The thumbnail in File Explorer changes (from showing the
picture) to an Media Player icon. And when open the file, it plays just
fine in Media Player.
So I don't understand why Daniel's vid000.mp4 file would say "Type of
file: TS file (.ts)" in Properties.
Of course I *hope* I'm wrong and that a rename to .ts will solve
Daniel's problem.
[...]

Even when the file extension is .mp4, MediaInfo says it is MPEG-ts.
You have to stretch the window nice and wide, as the person who wrote the
program, wasn't too worried about formatting.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/bwBKGDcy/MPEG-ts-detection.gif

Thanks. So let's hope that File Explorer's Properties "Type of file:"
is smarter than I thought it is, and is looking at the *content* of the
file, not at the *extension*.

Could you do a (File Explorer) 'Properties' on your 'Nine.mp4' file
and report what it says under "Type of file:"? That would tell us one
way or the other whether (FE) 'Properties' is smart or dumb.

[...]

[Paul]

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Paul

Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]

Post by Paul

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
Anyway, have you tried to just right-click the file in File Explorer,
select Properties and look at the 'Details' tab? For a normal video
file, File Explorer will mention the Length, Frame width and height,
Data rate, Total bitrate, Frame rate and Audio specs.

General Details
vid000.mp4 (name changed as suggested by others)
Type of file:    TS file (.ts)
Open with:    Media Player (Button "Change" which gives option to use Media Player, VLC Media Player, Windows Media Player Legacy, Firefox, Notepad, Word)
Location: On a sub-directory of my USB Drive
Size:    113MB (118,876,060 bytes)
Size on Disk:    113MB (118,882,304 bytes)
Created: Last Friday
Modified:    Last Friday
Accessed:    Yesterday

Post by Frank Slootweg
   If that does not help, the MediaInfo utility mentioned by Paul is
probably your best bet.

If it was Transport Stream, and the "Type of file" field says .ts
then I would try an extension of .ts and feed it to VLC.
https://recoverit.wondershare.com/video-recovery/what-is-ts-file.html

I don't think it's an actual Transport Stream file. AFAIK, the 'Type
of file:' field in Properties of a file just echoes the *extension*, not
the *content*.
For example, if I rename an actual MP4 file to .ts, Properties says
"Type of file: TS file (.ts)", i.e. matching the extesion, not the
actual content. The thumbnail in File Explorer changes (from showing the
picture) to an Media Player icon. And when open the file, it plays just
fine in Media Player.
So I don't understand why Daniel's vid000.mp4 file would say "Type of
file: TS file (.ts)" in Properties.
Of course I *hope* I'm wrong and that a rename to .ts will solve
Daniel's problem.
[...]

Even when the file extension is .mp4, MediaInfo says it is MPEG-ts.
You have to stretch the window nice and wide, as the person who wrote the
program, wasn't too worried about formatting.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/bwBKGDcy/MPEG-ts-detection.gif

Thanks. So let's hope that File Explorer's Properties "Type of file:"
is smarter than I thought it is, and is looking at the *content* of the
file, not at the *extension*.
Could you do a (File Explorer) 'Properties' on your 'Nine.mp4' file
and report what it says under "Type of file:"? That would tell us one
way or the other whether (FE) 'Properties' is smart or dumb.
[...]

I tried it. I named my sample file from the Internet

Nine.mp4

and File Explorer says

File Type: MP4

That is because Windows "trusts" the file extension.

If I remove the extension entirely, File Explorer says

File Type: file

so it hasn't a clue what it is then. The object-oriented
launching of an application, based on the file type, in Windows,
is centered around the declared extension.

*******

However, when I change the extension back to the original (download) value

Nine.ts

now, suddenly, doing a Properties in File Explorer, gives this

Video

Length: 00:01:02 (Sixty two seconds)
Frame width: 720
Frame height: 576 (Aussie PAL TV)
Data rate: 5291 kbps (Must be on a multiplex, multiple streams on one 6MHz channel)
Total bitrate: 5387 kbps
Frame rate: 25.00 frames/second

Audio

Bit rate: 96 kbps
Channels: 2 (stereo)
Audio Sample Rate: 48.000 kHz

And that means, Windows applied a TS specific filter, to collect
that metadata about the video. Such metadata would also show
up if you used Indexed Search and asked for "width=720"
and then that item would show up in the list.

When the file extension was MP4, it applied the MP4 filter
which failed to find anything.

And Windows doesn't have filters for everything, and even
applying the correct extension might elicit no useful response
at all. It's a "best effort" not a guarantee, and that's
true of most multimedia topics anyway.

Paul

[Frank Slootweg]

[...]

Post by Paul

Post by Frank Slootweg
Thanks. So let's hope that File Explorer's Properties "Type of file:"
is smarter than I thought it is, and is looking at the *content* of the
file, not at the *extension*.
Could you do a (File Explorer) 'Properties' on your 'Nine.mp4' file
and report what it says under "Type of file:"? That would tell us one
way or the other whether (FE) 'Properties' is smart or dumb.
[...]

I tried it. I named my sample file from the Internet
Nine.mp4
and File Explorer says
File Type: MP4
That is because Windows "trusts" the file extension.
If I remove the extension entirely, File Explorer says
File Type: file
so it hasn't a clue what it is then. The object-oriented
launching of an application, based on the file type, in Windows,
is centered around the declared extension.
*******
However, when I change the extension back to the original (download) value
Nine.ts
now, suddenly, doing a Properties in File Explorer, gives this
Video
Length: 00:01:02 (Sixty two seconds)
Frame width: 720
Frame height: 576 (Aussie PAL TV)
Data rate: 5291 kbps (Must be on a multiplex, multiple streams on one 6MHz channel)
Total bitrate: 5387 kbps
Frame rate: 25.00 frames/second
Audio
Bit rate: 96 kbps
Channels: 2 (stereo)
Audio Sample Rate: 48.000 kHz
And that means, Windows applied a TS specific filter, to collect
that metadata about the video. Such metadata would also show
up if you used Indexed Search and asked for "width=720"
and then that item would show up in the list.
When the file extension was MP4, it applied the MP4 filter
which failed to find anything.

Thanks. So File Explorer is smart if a Transport Stream file is named
.ts, but dumb if it's named .mp4.

But that still does not explain:

<me>

Post by Paul

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Frank Slootweg
So I don't understand why Daniel's vid000.mp4 file would say "Type of
file: TS file (.ts)" in Properties.

</me>

Bottom line: We need more details/feedback from Daniel.

Post by Paul
And Windows doesn't have filters for everything, and even
applying the correct extension might elicit no useful response
at all. It's a "best effort" not a guarantee, and that's
true of most multimedia topics anyway.

[Paul]

Post by Frank Slootweg
<me>

Post by Frank Slootweg
So I don't understand why Daniel's vid000.mp4 file would say "Type of
file: TS file (.ts)" in Properties.

</me>
Bottom line: We need more details/feedback from Daniel.

Was the information from MediaInfo ?

Paul

[Daniel70]

Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]

Post by Paul

Post by Frank Slootweg
Thanks. So let's hope that File Explorer's Properties "Type of file:"
is smarter than I thought it is, and is looking at the *content* of the
file, not at the *extension*.
Could you do a (File Explorer) 'Properties' on your 'Nine.mp4' file
and report what it says under "Type of file:"? That would tell us one
way or the other whether (FE) 'Properties' is smart or dumb.
[...]

I tried it. I named my sample file from the Internet
Nine.mp4
and File Explorer says
File Type: MP4
That is because Windows "trusts" the file extension.
If I remove the extension entirely, File Explorer says
File Type: file
so it hasn't a clue what it is then. The object-oriented
launching of an application, based on the file type, in Windows,
is centered around the declared extension.
*******
However, when I change the extension back to the original (download) value
Nine.ts
now, suddenly, doing a Properties in File Explorer, gives this
Video
Length: 00:01:02 (Sixty two seconds)
Frame width: 720
Frame height: 576 (Aussie PAL TV)
Data rate: 5291 kbps (Must be on a multiplex, multiple streams on one 6MHz channel)
Total bitrate: 5387 kbps
Frame rate: 25.00 frames/second
Audio
Bit rate: 96 kbps
Channels: 2 (stereo)
Audio Sample Rate: 48.000 kHz
And that means, Windows applied a TS specific filter, to collect
that metadata about the video. Such metadata would also show
up if you used Indexed Search and asked for "width=720"
and then that item would show up in the list.
When the file extension was MP4, it applied the MP4 filter
which failed to find anything.

Thanks. So File Explorer is smart if a Transport Stream file is named
.ts, but dumb if it's named .mp4.
<me>

Post by Paul

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Frank Slootweg
So I don't understand why Daniel's vid000.mp4 file would say "Type of
file: TS file (.ts)" in Properties.

</me>
Bottom line: We need more details/feedback from Daniel.

Sorry, Frank, what more information can I provide??

Just to get back to square ONE, when I finish recording Live T.V. onto
the PVR tonight, I'll copy a new file onto the USB Drive.

[Frank Slootweg]

[...]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
Thanks. So File Explorer is smart if a Transport Stream file is named
.ts, but dumb if it's named .mp4.
<me>

Post by Frank Slootweg
So I don't understand why Daniel's vid000.mp4 file would say "Type of
file: TS file (.ts)" in Properties.

</me>
Bottom line: We need more details/feedback from Daniel.

Sorry, Frank, what more information can I provide??
Just to get back to square ONE, when I finish recording Live T.V. onto
the PVR tonight, I'll copy a new file onto the USB Drive.

We need:

1. The information from the 'Details' tab of 'Properties' in File
Explorer.

2. The information from MediaInfo (see Paul's post). Preferably a
screenshot.

3. And most importantly:
If renaming the vid000.mp4 file to vid000.ts
- Let's you play the video in any and all of the programs you tried?
- Changes the information in 1. and 2.?

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by Paul
I tried it. I named my sample file from the Internet
Nine.mp4
and File Explorer says
File Type: MP4
That is because Windows "trusts" the file extension.
If I remove the extension entirely, File Explorer says
File Type: file
so it hasn't a clue what it is then.

I just tried a .ts file I happened to have handy, with the ffprobe command
(part of the FFmpeg suite). Changing the extension to .mp4 made no
difference, it was still able to show a summary of the streams (audio and
video) in the file either way.

Moral: I wouldn’t trust Microsoft’s attempts at multimedia handling as far
as I can throw them. Stick to something tried and true and developed by
acknowledged experts, like FFmpeg.

[Paul]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Paul
I tried it. I named my sample file from the Internet
Nine.mp4
and File Explorer says
File Type: MP4
That is because Windows "trusts" the file extension.
If I remove the extension entirely, File Explorer says
File Type: file
so it hasn't a clue what it is then.

I just tried a .ts file I happened to have handy, with the ffprobe command
(part of the FFmpeg suite). Changing the extension to .mp4 made no
difference, it was still able to show a summary of the streams (audio and
video) in the file either way.
Moral: I wouldn’t trust Microsoft’s attempts at multimedia handling as far
as I can throw them. Stick to something tried and true and developed by
acknowledged experts, like FFmpeg.

You realize the gentleman is on limited bandwidth, and can't afford
to go crazy with the downloads. That's why we're giving a built-in,
in the machine, a try. The symptoms suggest, perhaps just the
packet payloads are encrypted, and some port of the materials
outside of that can be parsed.

I already made a post with details on the Gyan FFMPEG download
offering, so if the guy wants an FFMPEG.exe, it is available.

You can use ffprobe.exe and dump the interleaved frames of information
into a really big file, for examination. the compressibility of
the file, the entropy, might hint at encryption, but it's going to
be pretty close, because high quality video formats already
"look mostly random".

nine.ts 180,179,388 bytes
nine.ts.7z 160,030,696 bytes 88.8% of original, using 7Z Ultra

If the file sample does not compress that well,
it could be because it is encrypted. Only if the Transport Stream
was 100% encrypted, would it compress poorly enough to be noteworthy.
If just the payloads are encrypted, the file will still be compressible.
Just not down to 88.8% .

Dumping the .ts into a hex editor, there weren't a lot of landmarks
in there. The nine.ts sample had no 4CC codes. There was an occasional
burst of padding. And there was a tiny bit of text string suggesting
the short-form Guide Data for "what is up next on this channel".
That is all I could see in the sample I have here.

Our broadcast signals here (8VSB), don't use a lot of multiplexes.
I have one signal I can get on an antenna, which is a multiplex
of four, and the sub-channels would be SD. All the others are HD.
But I don't have a PVR, and I have a tuner card, and my tuner
card uses unencrypted .wtv for packaging (what is recorded to disk).

Paul

[Daniel70]

Post by Paul

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Paul
I tried it. I named my sample file from the Internet
Nine.mp4
and File Explorer says
File Type: MP4
That is because Windows "trusts" the file extension.
If I remove the extension entirely, File Explorer says
File Type: file
so it hasn't a clue what it is then.

I just tried a .ts file I happened to have handy, with the ffprobe
command (part of the FFmpeg suite). Changing the extension to .mp4
made no difference, it was still able to show a summary of the
streams (audio and video) in the file either way.
Moral: I wouldn’t trust Microsoft’s attempts at multimedia handling
as far as I can throw them. Stick to something tried and true and
developed by acknowledged experts, like FFmpeg.

You realize the gentleman is on limited bandwidth,

Thank you, Paul, yes, I was .... but New Month, New Download limit!!

Hopefully this month I don't run out after only about one third of the
month! ;-P

[Daniel70]

Post by Paul

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Paul
I tried it. I named my sample file from the Internet
Nine.mp4
and File Explorer says
File Type: MP4
That is because Windows "trusts" the file extension.
If I remove the extension entirely, File Explorer says
File Type: file
so it hasn't a clue what it is then.

I just tried a .ts file I happened to have handy, with the ffprobe
command (part of the FFmpeg suite). Changing the extension to .mp4
made no difference, it was still able to show a summary of the
streams (audio and video) in the file either way.
Moral: I wouldn’t trust Microsoft’s attempts at multimedia
handling as far as I can throw them. Stick to something tried and
true and developed by acknowledged experts, like FFmpeg.

You realize the gentleman is on limited bandwidth,

"Gentleman"?? Who?? Me!! ;-P Thank you for that reference, Paul, but
that WAS the situation .... Seems my "month" goes from 20th to 20th,
roughly, so, for the interim, that limitation has disappeared!!

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

... MPEG2 is how TV is transmitted over the airwaves ...

Not for HD, though. High-def is transmitted using MPEG-4 TS.

[Ant]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... MPEG2 is how TV is transmitted over the airwaves ...

Not for HD, though. High-def is transmitted using MPEG-4 TS.

Isn't ATSC2 using MPEG2? Or was that ATSC1?

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by Ant

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... MPEG2 is how TV is transmitted over the airwaves ...

Not for HD, though. High-def is transmitted using MPEG-4 TS.

Isn't ATSC2 using MPEG2? Or was that ATSC1?

I wouldn’t know what they do in North Mexico.

[Paul]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Ant

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... MPEG2 is how TV is transmitted over the airwaves ...

Not for HD, though. High-def is transmitted using MPEG-4 TS.

Isn't ATSC2 using MPEG2? Or was that ATSC1?

I wouldn’t know what they do in North Mexico.

Considering where I live, there is no purpose served
by torturing terrestrial service (nobody gives a flying fuck
about the service), there is no reason to change standards.
There is plenty of OTA channel space left, even after
the channels where trimmed down as much as they are currently.
The bandwidth was auctioned off, and I don't know whether
the winners of the auction, ever used the bandwidth either.

Before the DTV transition, one broadcaster was available
practically everywhere in the country. Like running water,
it was one of the few things you could count on. It would be
one way to get an emergency alert to all citizens.

The Transition from NTSC to ATSC 8VSB, saw one major transmitter
(250kW) shut down, bringing darkness and despair to the rural
people in that area. They then had zero channels of OTA reception
on offer. Not even the nightly news. To get TV service,
they would need cable or telecom triple-play to get TV,
which is not always an option for extreme rural (in the woods)
people. If all you can get is ADSL at 3Mbit/sec, that's not
going to be good for TV carriage particularly.

No money was provided by the government, to construct new
DTV transmitters. A couple of the transmitters, somehow
used the analog transmitter (even on the same analog channel
on VHF) and fitted a new front end on it (at their own expense).
Other providers just shut down, if it meant spending money
on the service.

What you get on cable, is more highly multiplexed. and is going
to be somewhat different, quality wise, than the few OTA
channels we've got.

If you're in Toronto, you could see fifty channel codes on your
device, while sitting in your apartment on the 20th floor.
Whereas elsewhere in the country, put up an antenna, and
receive zero channels DTV. Then you go for satellite (a relative
uses that option). But while cable is available to a lot of
citizens, we couldn't get that at the cottage. And you would need
a 150 mile Yagi, to pick up the transmitter in the city
(after two bounces off the ocean).

These are the perils of living in a large country.

Paul

[TJ]

Post by Ant

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... MPEG2 is how TV is transmitted over the airwaves ...

Not for HD, though. High-def is transmitted using MPEG-4 TS.

Isn't ATSC2 using MPEG2? Or was that ATSC1?

Don't make the mistake of thinking that everybody is in a country that
uses ATSC, Ant. Just because ATSC 1.0 uses mpeg2 compression doesn't
mean other systems do, as well.

Somewhere up-thread Daniel posted some general information about a file
that indicated the PAL system. That's an indication that he is NOT in a
country using ATSC, and indeed the same list of information said
something about "Aussie."

*******

My only experience with a PVR is with an ATSC-NTSC converter box that
has a PVR function through the USB port. When set to record, the ATSC
stream is simply passed along to the storage device connected to that
USB port, with no conversion whatsoever. It's a simple matter for me to
then take that external device to my Linux box and play it with VLC, or
if I want, use Handbrake to convert it to a smaller file using a better
compression system.

I have no idea how difficult it is for Daniel to remove the hard drive
from his PVR, so I suppose what I'm about to suggest may not be
practical. But, if I were Daniel I suspect that if it was at all
possible I'd have two hard drives for the PVR, one to use and the other
switch in when it gets full, and I'd copy what I wanted to keep off the
full one while the second one is in the PVR.

But that's just me. YMMV.

TJ

[Daniel70]

Post by TJ

Post by Ant

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... MPEG2 is how TV is transmitted over the airwaves ...

Not for HD, though. High-def is transmitted using MPEG-4 TS.

Isn't ATSC2 using MPEG2? Or was that ATSC1?

Don't make the mistake of thinking that everybody is in a country that
uses ATSC, Ant. Just because ATSC 1.0 uses mpeg2 compression doesn't
mean other systems do, as well.
Somewhere up-thread Daniel posted some general information about a file
that indicated the  PAL system. That's an indication that he is NOT in a
country using ATSC, and indeed the same list of information said
something about "Aussie."

Aussie!! Aussie!! Aussie!! Oh! Oh! Oh!! ;-P

Post by TJ
                            *******
My only experience with a PVR is with an ATSC-NTSC converter box that
has a PVR function through the USB port. When set to record, the ATSC
stream is simply passed along to the storage device connected to that
USB port, with no conversion whatsoever. It's a simple matter for me to
then take that external device to my Linux box and play it with VLC, or
if I want, use Handbrake to convert it to a smaller file using a better
compression system.
I have no idea how difficult it is for Daniel to remove the hard drive
from his PVR, so I suppose what I'm about to suggest may not be
practical. But, if I were Daniel I suspect that if it was at all
possible I'd have two hard drives for the PVR, one to use and the other
switch in when it gets full, and I'd copy what I wanted to keep off the
full one while the second one is in the PVR.
But that's just me. YMMV.
TJ

Hardly worth the trouble, TJ. The problem (at this time, seems to be the
Format that the PVR uses, which ever hard drive I'm working with!!

[Frank Slootweg]

[...]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
Anyway, have you tried to just right-click the file in File Explorer,
select Properties and look at the 'Details' tab? For a normal video
file, File Explorer will mention the Length, Frame width and height,
Data rate, Total bitrate, Frame rate and Audio specs.

General Details
vid000.mp4 (name changed as suggested by others)
Type of file: TS file (.ts)
Open with: Media Player (Button "Change" which gives option to use Media
Player, VLC Media Player, Windows Media Player Legacy, Firefox, Notepad,
Word)
Location: On a sub-directory of my USB Drive
Size: 113MB (118,876,060 bytes)
Size on Disk: 113MB (118,882,304 bytes)
Created: Last Friday
Modified: Last Friday
Accessed: Yesterday

You say "General Details", but you mentioned info from the 'General'
tab, while I referred to the 'Details' tab.

Also see my response to Paul about the discrepancy between the .mp4
extension of the file and you reporting "Type of file: TS file (.ts)"

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
If that does not help, the MediaInfo utility mentioned by Paul is
probably your best bet.

[Daniel70]

Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
Anyway, have you tried to just right-click the file in File Explorer,
select Properties and look at the 'Details' tab? For a normal video
file, File Explorer will mention the Length, Frame width and height,
Data rate, Total bitrate, Frame rate and Audio specs.

General Details
vid000.mp4 (name changed as suggested by others)
Type of file: TS file (.ts)
Open with: Media Player (Button "Change" which gives option to use Media
Player, VLC Media Player, Windows Media Player Legacy, Firefox, Notepad,
Word)
Location: On a sub-directory of my USB Drive
Size: 113MB (118,876,060 bytes)
Size on Disk: 113MB (118,882,304 bytes)
Created: Last Friday
Modified: Last Friday
Accessed: Yesterday

You say "General Details", but you mentioned info from the 'General'
tab, while I referred to the 'Details' tab.

Yes, you are quite correct, there are two tabs (Oh! My failing
eyesight!!) 'General' and 'Details'

Listed above is the info as presented by the *General Tab* . The info on
the 'Details' tab includes ....

Video
Length 00:00:00
Frame width 730
Frame height 576
Data rate 5000kbps
Total bitrate 5000kbps
Frame rate 25.00 frames/second

Audio
Bit rate
Channels 2 (stereo)
Audio sample rate 32.000kHz

Media .... Contributing artists, Year, Genre .... all empty

Origin ... Directors, Producers, Writers, Publishers, Content provider,
Media created, Encoded by, Author URL, Promotion URL, Copyright .... all
empty

Content .... Parental rating, Parental rating reason, Composers,
Conductors, Period, Moon, Part of set, Initial key, Beats-per-minute,
Protected .... all empty.

File
Name Vid000.mp4.ts <------
Item type TS File
File location My USB Drive
Size 113 MB
Date created 21/02/2025 5:16 PM
Date modified 21/02/2025 5:16 PM
Attributes A
Availability
Offline status
Shared with
Owner Everyone
Computer This one

(and underneath all this there is a link to 'Remove Properties and
Personal Information')

Post by Frank Slootweg
Also see my response to Paul about the discrepancy between the .mp4
extension of the file and you reporting "Type of file: TS file (.ts)"

Yeap, as I highlighted above, so does that mean that (really) NOTHING
with-in the file changed??

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
If that does not help, the MediaInfo utility mentioned by Paul is
probably your best bet.

Sorry for missing this second tab first time around!!

[Frank Slootweg]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
Anyway, have you tried to just right-click the file in File Explorer,
select Properties and look at the 'Details' tab? For a normal video
file, File Explorer will mention the Length, Frame width and height,
Data rate, Total bitrate, Frame rate and Audio specs.

General Details
vid000.mp4 (name changed as suggested by others)
Type of file: TS file (.ts)
Open with: Media Player (Button "Change" which gives option to use Media
Player, VLC Media Player, Windows Media Player Legacy, Firefox, Notepad,
Word)
Location: On a sub-directory of my USB Drive
Size: 113MB (118,876,060 bytes)
Size on Disk: 113MB (118,882,304 bytes)
Created: Last Friday
Modified: Last Friday
Accessed: Yesterday

You say "General Details", but you mentioned info from the 'General'
tab, while I referred to the 'Details' tab.

Yes, you are quite correct, there are two tabs (Oh! My failing
eyesight!!) 'General' and 'Details'

Sorry, I hadn't yet seen this post when I wrote my '1. ... 2. ... 3.
...' post. Your post answers part of item1..

Post by Daniel70
Listed above is the info as presented by the *General Tab* . The info on
the 'Details' tab includes ....
Video
Length 00:00:00

This is clearly wrong! If the length is zero, not wonder you don't
see/hear anything when you play the file.

So you must find out why the length is zero (but the size is 113MB).

Post by Daniel70
Frame width 730
Frame height 576
Data rate 5000kbps
Total bitrate 5000kbps
Frame rate 25.00 frames/second
Audio
Bit rate
Channels 2 (stereo)
Audio sample rate 32.000kHz
Media .... Contributing artists, Year, Genre .... all empty
Origin ... Directors, Producers, Writers, Publishers, Content provider,
Media created, Encoded by, Author URL, Promotion URL, Copyright .... all
empty
Content .... Parental rating, Parental rating reason, Composers,
Conductors, Period, Moon, Part of set, Initial key, Beats-per-minute,
Protected .... all empty.
File
Name Vid000.mp4.ts <------

That explains why the 'General' tab says "Type of file: TS file (.ts)",
because the name was not vid000.mp4, as you said, but Vid000.mp4.ts.

Post by Daniel70
Item type TS File
File location My USB Drive
Size 113 MB
Date created 21/02/2025 5:16 PM
Date modified 21/02/2025 5:16 PM
Attributes A
Availability
Offline status
Shared with
Owner Everyone
Computer This one
(and underneath all this there is a link to 'Remove Properties and
Personal Information')

Post by Frank Slootweg
Also see my response to Paul about the discrepancy between the .mp4
extension of the file and you reporting "Type of file: TS file (.ts)"

Yeap, as I highlighted above, so does that mean that (really) NOTHING
with-in the file changed??

Changing the extension does indeed not change the content of the file,
but might (or might not) cause the player software to understand what
type of file it is.

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
If that does not help, the MediaInfo utility mentioned by Paul is
probably your best bet.

Sorry for missing this second tab first time around!!

[Paul]

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Frank Slootweg
Anyway, have you tried to just right-click the file in File Explorer,
select Properties and look at the 'Details' tab? For a normal video
file, File Explorer will mention the Length, Frame width and height,
Data rate, Total bitrate, Frame rate and Audio specs.

General Details
vid000.mp4 (name changed as suggested by others)
Type of file: TS file (.ts)
Open with: Media Player (Button "Change" which gives option to use Media
Player, VLC Media Player, Windows Media Player Legacy, Firefox, Notepad,
Word)
Location: On a sub-directory of my USB Drive
Size: 113MB (118,876,060 bytes)
Size on Disk: 113MB (118,882,304 bytes)
Created: Last Friday
Modified: Last Friday
Accessed: Yesterday

You say "General Details", but you mentioned info from the 'General'
tab, while I referred to the 'Details' tab.

Yes, you are quite correct, there are two tabs (Oh! My failing
eyesight!!) 'General' and 'Details'

Sorry, I hadn't yet seen this post when I wrote my '1. ... 2. ... 3.
...' post. Your post answers part of item1..

Post by Daniel70
Listed above is the info as presented by the *General Tab* . The info on
the 'Details' tab includes ....
Video
Length 00:00:00

This is clearly wrong! If the length is zero, not wonder you don't
see/hear anything when you play the file.
So you must find out why the length is zero (but the size is 113MB).

Post by Daniel70
Frame width 730
Frame height 576
Data rate 5000kbps
Total bitrate 5000kbps
Frame rate 25.00 frames/second
Audio
Bit rate
Channels 2 (stereo)
Audio sample rate 32.000kHz
Media .... Contributing artists, Year, Genre .... all empty
Origin ... Directors, Producers, Writers, Publishers, Content provider,
Media created, Encoded by, Author URL, Promotion URL, Copyright .... all
empty
Content .... Parental rating, Parental rating reason, Composers,
Conductors, Period, Moon, Part of set, Initial key, Beats-per-minute,
Protected .... all empty.
File
Name Vid000.mp4.ts <------

That explains why the 'General' tab says "Type of file: TS file (.ts)",
because the name was not vid000.mp4, as you said, but Vid000.mp4.ts.

Post by Daniel70
Item type TS File
File location My USB Drive
Size 113 MB
Date created 21/02/2025 5:16 PM
Date modified 21/02/2025 5:16 PM
Attributes A
Availability
Offline status
Shared with
Owner Everyone
Computer This one
(and underneath all this there is a link to 'Remove Properties and
Personal Information')

Post by Frank Slootweg
Also see my response to Paul about the discrepancy between the .mp4
extension of the file and you reporting "Type of file: TS file (.ts)"

Yeap, as I highlighted above, so does that mean that (really) NOTHING
with-in the file changed??

Changing the extension does indeed not change the content of the file,
but might (or might not) cause the player software to understand what
type of file it is.

The Windows Properties filter is picking up some info and not others.
This suggests "selective encryption" is at work, and it is a .ts file.

If you feed the .ts filter a file which is not .ts in any way,
the output is blank. The filter does not populate the fields, without
some evidence it is a Transport Stream.

Daniels file is populating the fields, but with suspicious or outright
wrong values. Which suggests the Microsoft filter or libAV is not able
to read everything it needs to read.

The duration of 0:00:00 means it cannot read the timestamps
inside the frames. Maybe it is scanning for the last intact
frame in the stream, and hopes to extract a timestamp from it.

The datarate of the file, is highly unlikely to be a "round" integer
number. That's bullshit right there.

If the filter had admitted the content was AAC encoded and had
a stardard bitrate, I might have believed it possible to play the
video. But I don't think enough info in that Properties is
correct, for any Windows tool [VLC, ffplay] to play it.

Paul

[Newyana2]

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but
then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

I have no idea, but I've had trouble with + and never with -.
So I make sure to buy -. And I try to get Memorex. Once
again, I don't really have a good reason. It's just that I've never
had trouble with it. I once had a whole stack of Sony that were
useless. And I'm hesitant to try the bargain brands.

[Paul]

I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the 'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

   I have no idea, but I've had trouble with + and never with -.
So I make sure to buy -. And I try to get Memorex. Once
again, I don't really have a good reason. It's just that I've never
had trouble with it. I once had a whole stack of Sony that were
useless. And I'm hesitant to try the bargain brands.

The brand on the disc, has nothing to do with the manufacturer.

For example, Maxell and Fujitsu, used to package Ritek discs
in a nice plastic cake box for you.

The actual companies, have names like CMC, Ritek, Tao Yuden.
Memorex buys lots of discs from a certain supplier, and
it's a different supplier than Maxell would buy from.

Philips doesn't make disks, and it buys whatever is available.

The media tag might make this clear, when you use your burning
software to read the tag. The tag is practically *never* going
to match the brand stamped on the cake box. The two layers of
the system are that isolated.

Now that the whole thing is collapsed, if I go to my computer
store, there are DVD R And DVD DL R left as media type. And
the quantity of media is so extensive, there were four cake
boxes under the cash, and I bought two of them. At first, the
staff didn't even know where the blank media had gone. But one of the
staff eventually figured out it was underneath
the cash register in the display case there.

That store used to have minimum of three cubic meters of media at one
time. They set up tables apart from the other display areas,
just so they could put more boxes of media under the table.
There was a wide selection of fake names for the branding back then.

The "cdfreaks" website is where you used to get information
on what was worth buying. They could tell you what was inside
the box, because a "Philips" cake box, did not say on the back
what brand of discs they were packaging. Someone had to buy a
sample so they could tell you what those are.

And "cdfreaks" had some pirates, and occasionally someone would
say "I burned 500 of those last week, very good". And occasionally
one of those people would tell you "I have seven drives set up in
parallel, burning away". That would give you some idea what
a pirate would do (make single layer media from a DL Hollywood pressing).
So what if the movie was blurry.

And if you think pirating is easy, that's a lot of work. There is
too much manual handling of materials to be a "success" at it.
It's more a state of mind, than a business.

Paul

[Carlos E. R.]

Post by Paul
The actual companies, have names like CMC, Ritek, Tao Yuden.
Memorex buys lots of discs from a certain supplier, and
it's a different supplier than Maxell would buy from.
Philips doesn't make disks, and it buys whatever is available.
The media tag might make this clear, when you use your burning
software to read the tag. The tag is practically*never* going
to match the brand stamped on the cake box. The two layers of
the system are that isolated.

There is a command in Linux that gives you the actual information on the
disk, but I do not remember it an it is not in my notes under "DVD". Ah,
it is "dvd+rw-mediainfo /dev/dvd".

And then there were tables that told the quality of the disk based on
that result, possibly in the links I posted earlier.

[candycanearter07]

Post by Carlos E. R.

Post by Paul
The actual companies, have names like CMC, Ritek, Tao Yuden.
Memorex buys lots of discs from a certain supplier, and
it's a different supplier than Maxell would buy from.
Philips doesn't make disks, and it buys whatever is available.
The media tag might make this clear, when you use your burning
software to read the tag. The tag is practically*never* going
to match the brand stamped on the cake box. The two layers of
the system are that isolated.

There is a command in Linux that gives you the actual information on the
disk, but I do not remember it an it is not in my notes under "DVD". Ah,
it is "dvd+rw-mediainfo /dev/dvd".
And then there were tables that told the quality of the disk based on
that result, possibly in the links I posted earlier.

For the computers I've had, I think only /dev/sr0 shows up for the disk
file.

[Char Jackson]

Post by Paul
The "cdfreaks" website is where you used to get information
on what was worth buying. They could tell you what was inside
the box, because a "Philips" cake box, did not say on the back
what brand of discs they were packaging. Someone had to buy a
sample so they could tell you what those are.
And "cdfreaks" had some pirates, and occasionally someone would
say "I burned 500 of those last week, very good". And occasionally
one of those people would tell you "I have seven drives set up in
parallel, burning away". That would give you some idea what
a pirate would do (make single layer media from a DL Hollywood pressing).
So what if the movie was blurry.
And if you think pirating is easy, that's a lot of work. There is
too much manual handling of materials to be a "success" at it.
It's more a state of mind, than a business.

That approach to piracy pretty much ended more than 25 years ago. No one
burns media anymore, and no self-respecting group would put their name
on a release that was "blurry". That was a good flashback, though.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Paul
The "cdfreaks" website is where you used to get information
on what was worth buying. They could tell you what was inside
the box, because a "Philips" cake box, did not say on the back
what brand of discs they were packaging. Someone had to buy a
sample so they could tell you what those are.
And "cdfreaks" had some pirates, and occasionally someone would
say "I burned 500 of those last week, very good". And occasionally
one of those people would tell you "I have seven drives set up in
parallel, burning away". That would give you some idea what
a pirate would do (make single layer media from a DL Hollywood pressing).
So what if the movie was blurry.
And if you think pirating is easy, that's a lot of work. There is
too much manual handling of materials to be a "success" at it.
It's more a state of mind, than a business.

That approach to piracy pretty much ended more than 25 years ago. No one
burns media anymore, and no self-respecting group would put their name
on a release that was "blurry". That was a good flashback, though.

I don't know about burning, but there is a big department store here (El
Corte Inglés) that does sell CDs and DVDs and BlueRays (and vinyls).
They don't stock much, though, so whatever you want you have to ask for
it and wait some days.

I had a conversation with someone, and I said that I was watching Star
Trek Lower Decks S1, when it suddenly disappeared from Amazon Prime
Video. He replied "that the reason I prefer solid media to streaming".
Of course, there are torrents.

[Char Jackson]

On Mon, 17 Feb 2025 21:05:22 +0100, "Carlos E.R."

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Paul
The "cdfreaks" website is where you used to get information
on what was worth buying. They could tell you what was inside
the box, because a "Philips" cake box, did not say on the back
what brand of discs they were packaging. Someone had to buy a
sample so they could tell you what those are.
And "cdfreaks" had some pirates, and occasionally someone would
say "I burned 500 of those last week, very good". And occasionally
one of those people would tell you "I have seven drives set up in
parallel, burning away". That would give you some idea what
a pirate would do (make single layer media from a DL Hollywood pressing).
So what if the movie was blurry.
And if you think pirating is easy, that's a lot of work. There is
too much manual handling of materials to be a "success" at it.
It's more a state of mind, than a business.

That approach to piracy pretty much ended more than 25 years ago. No one
burns media anymore, and no self-respecting group would put their name
on a release that was "blurry". That was a good flashback, though.

I don't know about burning,

To be clear, I was only referring to the well-known piracy release
groups, and I suppose all or most of the lesser known groups, as well.

Post by Carlos E.R.
but there is a big department store here (El
Corte Inglés) that does sell CDs and DVDs and BlueRays (and vinyls).
They don't stock much, though, so whatever you want you have to ask for
it and wait some days.

Where do the products come from? Are they legit? I suppose they must be,
since they're up for sale in a department store. I was only talking
about piracy, specifically video and audio.

Post by Carlos E.R.
I had a conversation with someone, and I said that I was watching Star
Trek Lower Decks S1, when it suddenly disappeared from Amazon Prime
Video. He replied "that the reason I prefer solid media to streaming".
Of course, there are torrents.

One of my mates uses a service that tells him which country has the
movie or TV program that he wants to watch, and which streaming service
is offering it. A couple of clicks later, his VPN has placed him in that
country and his normal login creds work as usual, and he's a happy
camper. If something disappears from streaming services in one country,
they often pop up, or remain available, in one or more other countries.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Char Jackson
On Mon, 17 Feb 2025 21:05:22 +0100, "Carlos E.R."

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Paul
The "cdfreaks" website is where you used to get information
on what was worth buying. They could tell you what was inside
the box, because a "Philips" cake box, did not say on the back
what brand of discs they were packaging. Someone had to buy a
sample so they could tell you what those are.
And "cdfreaks" had some pirates, and occasionally someone would
say "I burned 500 of those last week, very good". And occasionally
one of those people would tell you "I have seven drives set up in
parallel, burning away". That would give you some idea what
a pirate would do (make single layer media from a DL Hollywood pressing).
So what if the movie was blurry.
And if you think pirating is easy, that's a lot of work. There is
too much manual handling of materials to be a "success" at it.
It's more a state of mind, than a business.

That approach to piracy pretty much ended more than 25 years ago. No one
burns media anymore, and no self-respecting group would put their name
on a release that was "blurry". That was a good flashback, though.

I don't know about burning,

To be clear, I was only referring to the well-known piracy release
groups, and I suppose all or most of the lesser known groups, as well.

Post by Carlos E.R.
but there is a big department store here (El
Corte Inglés) that does sell CDs and DVDs and BlueRays (and vinyls).
They don't stock much, though, so whatever you want you have to ask for
it and wait some days.

Where do the products come from? Are they legit? I suppose they must be,
since they're up for sale in a department store. I was only talking
about piracy, specifically video and audio.

Yes, certainly they are legit.

But I mean, if there are legit sales, means there is a market, and there
will also be ilegit sales somewhere else, in some manner.

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Carlos E.R.
I had a conversation with someone, and I said that I was watching Star
Trek Lower Decks S1, when it suddenly disappeared from Amazon Prime
Video. He replied "that the reason I prefer solid media to streaming".
Of course, there are torrents.

One of my mates uses a service that tells him which country has the
movie or TV program that he wants to watch, and which streaming service
is offering it. A couple of clicks later, his VPN has placed him in that
country and his normal login creds work as usual, and he's a happy
camper. If something disappears from streaming services in one country,
they often pop up, or remain available, in one or more other countries.

Wow. :-o :-)

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Char Jackson
On Mon, 17 Feb 2025 21:05:22 +0100, "Carlos E.R."

Post by Carlos E.R.
I had a conversation with someone, and I said that I was watching Star
Trek Lower Decks S1, when it suddenly disappeared from Amazon Prime
Video. He replied "that the reason I prefer solid media to streaming".
Of course, there are torrents.

One of my mates uses a service that tells him which country has the
movie or TV program that he wants to watch, and which streaming service
is offering it. A couple of clicks later, his VPN has placed him in that
country and his normal login creds work as usual, and he's a happy
camper. If something disappears from streaming services in one country,
they often pop up, or remain available, in one or more other countries.

Wow. :-o  :-)

What happens with languages? The target country might have the program
dubbed to some local language. Assuming the original language of the
program was English, do they always keep it?

[Daniel70]

Post by Char Jackson
On Mon, 17 Feb 2025 21:05:22 +0100, "Carlos E.R."

<Snip>

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Carlos E.R.
I had a conversation with someone, and I said that I was watching Star
Trek Lower Decks S1, when it suddenly disappeared from Amazon Prime
Video. He replied "that the reason I prefer solid media to streaming".
Of course, there are torrents.

One of my mates uses a service that tells him which country has the
movie or TV program that he wants to watch, and which streaming service
is offering it. A couple of clicks later, his VPN has placed him in that
country and his normal login creds work as usual, and he's a happy
camper. If something disappears from streaming services in one country,
they often pop up, or remain available, in one or more other countries.

Which came FIRST, The Chicken or The Egg??

Do Intel/etc throw greater capabilities into a uProcessor and the
programmers then have to make use of that greater capability ..... or do
the programmers tell Intel/etc that they want greater capabilities??

If our ancestors had been satisfied with drawing 'pictures' on Cave wall
would we still be here?? ;-P

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Daniel70

Post by Char Jackson
On Mon, 17 Feb 2025 21:05:22 +0100, "Carlos E.R."

<Snip>

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Carlos E.R.
I had a conversation with someone, and I said that I was watching Star
Trek Lower Decks S1, when it suddenly disappeared from Amazon Prime
Video. He replied "that the reason I prefer solid media to streaming".
Of course, there are torrents.

One of my mates uses a service that tells him which country has the
movie or TV program that he wants to watch, and which streaming service
is offering it. A couple of clicks later, his VPN has placed him in that
country and his normal login creds work as usual, and he's a happy
camper. If something disappears from streaming services in one country,
they often pop up, or remain available, in one or more other countries.

Which came FIRST, The Chicken or The Egg??
Do Intel/etc throw greater capabilities into a uProcessor and the
programmers then have to make use of that greater capability ..... or do
the programmers tell Intel/etc that they want greater capabilities??

I think both.


I remember the advent of the 386 which had many capabilities that were
not used at the time. That CPU was amazing, compared with the 286 and 8086.

Post by Daniel70
If our ancestors had been satisfied with drawing 'pictures' on Cave wall
would we still be here?? ;-P

[Stan Brown]

Post by Carlos E.R.
I remember the advent of the 386 which had many capabilities that were
not used at the time. That CPU was amazing, compared with the 286 and 8086.

I think that was the first one that didn't need a
separate floating-point processor, right?

[Daniel70]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Carlos E.R.
I remember the advent of the 386 which had many capabilities that were
not used at the time. That CPU was amazing, compared with the 286 and 8086.

I think that was the first one that didn't need a
separate floating-point processor, right?

That rings a bell ...... but what had we done with out the
'floating-point processor' previously?? Used a seperate, discreet,
'floating-point processor', maybe .... which, I suppose, would make the
process a bit slower.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Carlos E.R.
I remember the advent of the 386 which had many capabilities that were
not used at the time. That CPU was amazing, compared with the 286 and 8086.

I think that was the first one that didn't need a
separate floating-point processor, right?

No, the wikipedia cites the 80387 as a separate chip.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X87#80387

That rings a bell ...... but what had we done with out the 'floating-
point processor' previously?? Used a seperate, discreet, 'floating-point
processor', maybe .... which, I suppose, would make the process a bit
slower.

Yes, an optional separate coprocesor was used initially. If it was not
inserted, an operation trying to use a coprocesor instruction would
raise an exception, which would be attended and the instruction emulated
in software by the program, which was significantly slower.


I think it was the Pentium which was complete. The wikipedia says for
the 487:

80487

The i487SX (P23N) was marketed as a floating-point unit coprocessor for
Intel i486SX machines. It actually contained a full-blown i486DX
implementation. When installed into an i486SX system, the i487 disabled
the main CPU and took over all CPU operations. The i487 took measures to
detect the presence of an i486SX and would not function without the
original CPU in place.[26][27][failed verification]

[Mark Lloyd]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 12:11:53 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

[snip]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Yes, an optional separate coprocesor was used initially. If it was not
inserted, an operation trying to use a coprocesor instruction would
raise an exception, which would be attended and the instruction emulated
in software by the program, which was significantly slower.

IIRC, the 286 was the first to have that exception, although there were
programs to emulate it on older systems. If I remember right, the turbo C
compiler would replace every floating point instruction with a call to a
routine that checked for a FPU. If it found one it would replace that call
with the FPU instruction and return to a few bytes earlier to run that
instruction, otherwise it would emulate it.

[snip]

[Ant]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Yes, an optional separate coprocesor was used initially. If it was not
inserted, an operation trying to use a coprocesor instruction would
raise an exception, which would be attended and the instruction emulated
in software by the program, which was significantly slower.

IIRC, the 286 was the first to have that exception, although there were
programs to emulate it on older systems. If I remember right, the turbo C
compiler would replace every floating point instruction with a call to a
routine that checked for a FPU. If it found one it would replace that call
with the FPU instruction and return to a few bytes earlier to run that
instruction, otherwise it would emulate it.
[snip]

What about 386SX? IIRC, it didn't have a coprocessor like DX. I can't remember!

[Jasen Betts]

Post by Ant

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Yes, an optional separate coprocesor was used initially. If it was not
inserted, an operation trying to use a coprocesor instruction would
raise an exception, which would be attended and the instruction emulated
in software by the program, which was significantly slower.

IIRC, the 286 was the first to have that exception, although there were
programs to emulate it on older systems. If I remember right, the turbo C
compiler would replace every floating point instruction with a call to a
routine that checked for a FPU. If it found one it would replace that call
with the FPU instruction and return to a few bytes earlier to run that
instruction, otherwise it would emulate it.
[snip]

What about 386SX? IIRC, it didn't have a coprocessor like DX. I can't remember!

386SX had an external 16 bit data bus, 386DX had 32 bit. inbuilt
co-processors started with the 486DX

[Mark Lloyd]

Post by Ant

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Yes, an optional separate coprocesor was used initially. If it was
not inserted, an operation trying to use a coprocesor instruction
would raise an exception, which would be attended and the instruction
emulated in software by the program, which was significantly slower.

IIRC, the 286 was the first to have that exception, although there were
programs to emulate it on older systems. If I remember right, the turbo
C compiler would replace every floating point instruction with a call
to a routine that checked for a FPU. If it found one it would replace
that call with the FPU instruction and return to a few bytes earlier to
run that instruction, otherwise it would emulate it.
[snip]

What about 386SX? IIRC, it didn't have a coprocessor like DX. I can't remember!

No 386 had a coprocessor. You could add a 387 to the system (I don't
remember if there was a 387SX). IIRC, it was also possible to use a 287.

The difference between 386SX and 386DX was a limited (24-bit instead of
32-bit) address bus, and a multiplexed (32-bit) data bus.

It was with the 486 that the DX meant it had a coprocessor. There was also
a 486DX2 that ran at a doubled clock speed.

[Peter 'Shaggy' Haywood]

Groovy hepcat Mark Lloyd was jivin' in alt.os.linux on Sun, 23 Feb 2025
06:54 am. It's a cool scene! Dig it.

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by Ant

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Yes, an optional separate coprocesor was used initially. If it was
not inserted, an operation trying to use a coprocesor instruction
would raise an exception, which would be attended and the
instruction emulated in software by the program, which was
significantly slower.

IIRC, the 286 was the first to have that exception, although there
were programs to emulate it on older systems. If I remember right,
the turbo C compiler would replace every floating point instruction
with a call to a routine that checked for a FPU. If it found one it
would replace that call with the FPU instruction and return to a few
bytes earlier to run that instruction, otherwise it would emulate
it.
[snip]

What about 386SX? IIRC, it didn't have a coprocessor like DX. I can't remember!

No 386 had a coprocessor. You could add a 387 to the system (I don't
remember if there was a 387SX). IIRC, it was also possible to use a 287.

Yes, there was a 387SX. And co-processors (or FPUs, as they're more
correctly called) for PC family CPUs go right back to the 8087 to go
with the 8086/8088. So a PC/XT could have an FPU too.

Post by Mark Lloyd
The difference between 386SX and 386DX was a limited (24-bit instead
of 32-bit) address bus, and a multiplexed (32-bit) data bus.

For anyone who doesn't know what that means; the 386SX had a 16 bit
data bus, the same as the 286. All 32 bit memory access instructions
had to "thunk" between the internal 32 bit registers and the external
data bus, meaning that a 32 bit memory access had to be done in two 16
bit accesses.

Post by Mark Lloyd
It was with the 486 that the DX meant it had a coprocessor. There was
also a 486DX2 that ran at a doubled clock speed.

Right. There is also a 486DX4, which runs at 4 times the clock speed.
And the 486SX had no built-in FPU, so there is a 487SX to go with it.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by Peter 'Shaggy' Haywood
There is also a 486DX4, which runs at 4 times the clock speed.

The CPU clock was only 3× the memory clock, not 4×. There was quite a lot
of grumbling over Intel’s (mis)use of the “DX” suffix number here.

Intel, of course, insisted that the number was just a number, it didn’t
bear any relation to the CPU clock multiplier.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Yes, an optional separate coprocesor was used initially. If it was not
inserted, an operation trying to use a coprocesor instruction would
raise an exception, which would be attended and the instruction emulated
in software by the program, which was significantly slower.

IIRC, the 286 was the first to have that exception, although there were
programs to emulate it on older systems. If I remember right, the turbo C
compiler would replace every floating point instruction with a call to a
routine that checked for a FPU. If it found one it would replace that call
with the FPU instruction and return to a few bytes earlier to run that
instruction, otherwise it would emulate it.
[snip]

No, the 8087 also had that exception, it was used by Borland's Turbo
Pascal series.

[Mark Lloyd]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Yes, an optional separate coprocesor was used initially. If it was not
inserted, an operation trying to use a coprocesor instruction would
raise an exception, which would be attended and the instruction
emulated in software by the program, which was significantly slower.

IIRC, the 286 was the first to have that exception, although there were
programs to emulate it on older systems. If I remember right, the turbo
C compiler would replace every floating point instruction with a call
to a routine that checked for a FPU. If it found one it would replace
that call with the FPU instruction and return to a few bytes earlier to
run that instruction, otherwise it would emulate it.
[snip]

No, the 8087 also had that exception, it was used by Borland's Turbo
Pascal series.

Did you mean 8086 or 8088? 8087 doesn't make sense here, since an
exception would be for when that chip is NOT present.

I found my Intel data book for processors through the 286, and the
exceptions are:

0 - Divide error exception (divide by 0)
1 - Single step interrupt
2 - NMI interrupt
3 - Breakpoint interrupt
4 - INTO detected overflow exception
5 - BOUND range exceeded exception (80186+)
6 - Invalid opcode exception (80286+)
7 - Processor extension not available exception (80286+)

BTW, with the 8086/8088 Intel listed interrupt numbers 5-31 as reserved.
Microsoft ignored that and used interrupt 5 for print screen. I don't
remember how they dealt with that on the AT (maybe they just didn't use
the new BOUND instruction).

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Yes, an optional separate coprocesor was used initially. If it was not
inserted, an operation trying to use a coprocesor instruction would
raise an exception, which would be attended and the instruction
emulated in software by the program, which was significantly slower.

IIRC, the 286 was the first to have that exception, although there were
programs to emulate it on older systems. If I remember right, the turbo
C compiler would replace every floating point instruction with a call
to a routine that checked for a FPU. If it found one it would replace
that call with the FPU instruction and return to a few bytes earlier to
run that instruction, otherwise it would emulate it.
[snip]

No, the 8087 also had that exception, it was used by Borland's Turbo
Pascal series.

Did you mean 8086 or 8088? 8087 doesn't make sense here, since an
exception would be for when that chip is NOT present.

Right, the 8086/8 generated the exception on finding an instruction for
the coprocesor and there was no coprocesor.

Post by Mark Lloyd
I found my Intel data book for processors through the 286, and the
0 - Divide error exception (divide by 0)
1 - Single step interrupt
2 - NMI interrupt
3 - Breakpoint interrupt
4 - INTO detected overflow exception
5 - BOUND range exceeded exception (80186+)
6 - Invalid opcode exception (80286+)
7 - Processor extension not available exception (80286+)
BTW, with the 8086/8088 Intel listed interrupt numbers 5-31 as reserved.
Microsoft ignored that and used interrupt 5 for print screen. I don't
remember how they dealt with that on the AT (maybe they just didn't use
the new BOUND instruction).

[Mark Lloyd]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 18:08:21 +1100, Daniel70 wrote:

[snip]

Post by Daniel70
That rings a bell ...... but what had we done with out the
'floating-point processor' previously?? Used a seperate, discreet,
'floating-point processor', maybe .... which, I suppose, would make the
process a bit slower.

Older PCs (8086-80387) usually had a socket for a floating-point
coproccessor. This chips were often expensive.

[Richard Kettlewell]

Post by Carlos E.R.
I remember the advent of the 386 which had many capabilities that
were not used at the time. That CPU was amazing, compared with the
286 and 8086.

I think that was the first one that didn't need a separate
floating-point processor, right?

The 80386 still needed a separate FPU. The 80486 was the first to
integrate it.

[Mark Lloyd]

Post by Carlos E.R.
I remember the advent of the 386 which had many capabilities that were
not used at the time. That CPU was amazing, compared with the 286 and 8086.

I think that was the first one that didn't need a separate
floating-point processor, right?

That was the 486 (later called 486DX, when they made a FPU-less 486SX).

"SX" was used with the 386, but it meant something different. The 386SX
had a limited (24-bit) external (off chip) address bus, and a multiplexed
data bus. Both were 32-bit CPUs and neither had an internal FPU.

BTW, I remember an ad calling the 386SX the "SX-iest".

BTW2, one other variation of the 386 was the 376, which lacked real mode.

[Jasen Betts]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Carlos E.R.
I remember the advent of the 386 which had many capabilities that were
not used at the time. That CPU was amazing, compared with the 286 and 8086.

I think that was the first one that didn't need a
separate floating-point processor, right?

no, that was the 80486DX

80386 was the first 32 bit

[Rick]

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but
then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??
(Note ... I'm not discussing R v RW, just the -/+.)
Back in the day (70's/80's), I used to do some Digital work where 'they'
talked about Positive Logic (Ones = +5V, Zeros = Zero volts) and
Negative Logic (Ones = Zero Volts and Zeros = +5V or even Ones = -5V and
Zeros = Zero Volts), so I can understand/accept that there are
differences ..... but with DVDs??
On a +R DVD, are the 'Ones' high points on the disk whilst on a -R DVD
are the 'ones' the low points on the disk?? (Or, rather than 'highs' and
'lows', is it a case of the orientations of the 'North Poles' and 'South
Poles' of the Domains??)

I haven't done a lot with DVD discs in years, but I agree with those who
say that if you are using modern equipment there is not a big difference
between them. I had a slight preference for the +R, but usually based
purchase decisions on prices and deals. I would normally look to spend
around 25 cents US per disc (100 for $25 was a good deal) but have no
idea what prices are like nowadays.

A far bigger issue in the old days was the brand of disc. While I
eventually tended to buy Verbatim, I used several other brands at
different times, and there were a few like Magnavox that were pretty bad
and I tried to avoid them. Nowadays, with external drives being so
cheap and having such large capacities, I rarely use DVDs and would
probably have to hunt around to find an external DVD drive if I needed
to create one.

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Rick

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs
I'll want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of
the 'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's....
but then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??
(Note ... I'm not discussing R v RW, just the -/+.)
Back in the day (70's/80's), I used to do some Digital work where
'they' talked about Positive Logic (Ones = +5V, Zeros = Zero volts)
and Negative Logic (Ones = Zero Volts and Zeros = +5V or even Ones =
-5V and Zeros = Zero Volts), so I can understand/accept that there are
differences ..... but with DVDs??
On a +R DVD, are the 'Ones' high points on the disk whilst on a -R DVD
are the 'ones' the low points on the disk?? (Or, rather than 'highs'
and 'lows', is it a case of the orientations of the 'North Poles' and
'South Poles' of the Domains??)

I haven't done a lot with DVD discs in years, but I agree with those who
say that if you are using modern equipment there is not a big difference
between them.  I had a slight preference for the +R, but usually based
purchase decisions on prices and deals.  I would normally look to spend
around 25 cents US per disc (100 for $25 was a good deal) but have no
idea what prices are like nowadays.
A far bigger issue in the old days was the brand of disc.  While I
eventually tended to buy Verbatim, I used several other brands at
different times, and there were a few like Magnavox that were pretty bad
and I tried to avoid them.  Nowadays, with external drives being so
cheap and having such large capacities, I rarely use DVDs and would
probably have to hunt around to find an external DVD drive if I needed
to create one.

I've used Verbatim -R for decades; and never had a fail. Seldom used
these days, but the other day I needed one for a downloaded OS.iso. I
got one from a package in the cupboard (been there for well over 12
years) and it went just fine.
I also have wallets with recorded Verbatim -R discs from over 20 years
ago. I try one now and again; and never a single fail.
Some of the players are old, some only 5 or so years.
I think

[Paul]

I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the 'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??
(Note ... I'm not discussing R v RW, just the -/+.)
Back in the day (70's/80's), I used to do some Digital work where 'they' talked about Positive Logic (Ones = +5V, Zeros = Zero volts) and Negative Logic (Ones = Zero Volts and Zeros = +5V or even Ones = -5V and Zeros = Zero Volts), so I can understand/accept that there are differences ..... but with DVDs??
On a +R DVD, are the 'Ones' high points on the disk whilst on a -R DVD are the 'ones' the low points on the disk?? (Or, rather than 'highs' and 'lows', is it a case of the orientations of the 'North Poles' and 'South Poles' of the Domains??)

I haven't done a lot with DVD discs in years, but I agree with those who say that if you are using modern equipment there is not a big difference between them.  I had a slight preference for the +R, but usually based purchase decisions on prices and deals.  I would normally look to spend around 25 cents US per disc (100 for $25 was a good deal) but have no idea what prices are like nowadays.
A far bigger issue in the old days was the brand of disc.  While I eventually tended to buy Verbatim, I used several other brands at different times, and there were a few like Magnavox that were pretty bad and I tried to avoid them.  Nowadays, with external drives being so cheap and having such large capacities, I rarely use DVDs and would probably have to hunt around to find an external DVD drive if I needed to create one.

I've used Verbatim -R for decades; and never had a fail. Seldom used these days, but the other day I needed one for a downloaded OS.iso. I got one from a package in the cupboard (been there for well over 12 years) and it went just fine.
I also have wallets with recorded Verbatim -R discs from over 20 years ago. I try one now and again; and never a single fail.
Some of the players are old, some only 5 or so years.
I think I'd give Verbatim a 10/10 rating.
Ed

Considering they are mostly a middle-man, that's a high compliment.

To their credit, they use a five digit part number. If someone on the
Internet were to say "their 12345 product gave a good result", if
you bought the 12345 product you would see the same. They likely source
all of a particular SKU, from a single manufacturer. So if the product
was made by Ritek, and was 12345 Verbatim, then buying that a year
later it would still be Ritek and with the same media tag.

Verbatim seems to own some physical facilities now. They may have
acquired a company that makes jewel boxes for housing discs. They may
have acquired M-Disc factory (only part of it). A few other things
would still be the arms length, buy-a-lot-from-a-factory type business.

It's unclear, why more of the foreign suppliers did not do direct marketing
of their own. Ritek could easily have purchased cake boxes and packaged up
their stuff, shutting down innumerable middle-men as a side effect. But
they didn't do that.

That's why, one year, Ritek was only available as stacks of bare
discs, *wrapped in Saran Wrap*. Surely the most stupid packaging exercise
ever practiced by my computer store. And that's because Ritek never ever
put their stuff in a cake box. When the end came, they sold raw discs,
and the store didn't have cake boxes either, so they used Saran Wrap.
Did the users buy those that way ? I don't think so. You can't hump
Saran wrapped piles of DVDs around your livingroom. They will spill
all over the floor.

At least Verbatim has cake boxes. But the media itself comes, most
of the time, from someone else. It's only at the collapse and end
of the industry, that Verbatim has acquired small factory setups of its
own. Because, no other supplier could stretch themselves to take
these factories "into the fold". One of the factories, has
competing employees working elbow to elbow, as a "joint venture",
until the market is gone at least. More cats sleeping with dogs.
Rather than throw the equipment away, the factory doubled up,
the employees went with it (because the chemistry is a trade
secret and some of them know how to make discs).

Paul

[Stan Brown]

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but
then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)

And this doesn't help?

Post by Daniel70
https://www.google.com/search?q=DVD-R+vs.+DVD%2BR&udm=14

Google does a pretty good job, in general, of answering
"what's the difference between A and B" if you simply
search for "A vs. B" (no quotes).

[Dan Purgert]

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but
then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

Was something to do with the dyes and actual burn logic (i.e. "which
consortium are you buying into?") -- a lot like betamax vs. VHS (etc.)

As I recall, one of them died out; or drives converged and everything
burns anything at this point (unless you have a 15-20 year old burner,
in which case ... )

[Paul]

Post by Dan Purgert

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but
then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

Was something to do with the dyes and actual burn logic (i.e. "which
consortium are you buying into?") -- a lot like betamax vs. VHS (etc.)
As I recall, one of them died out; or drives converged and everything
burns anything at this point (unless you have a 15-20 year old burner,
in which case ... )

You might be thinking of BluRay versus HDDVD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD

"HD DVD was envisioned to be the successor to
the standard DVD format, but lost out to Blu-ray"

DVD with the (+) and (-) sign, are typically both supported
on modern DVD drives you might have bought. However, if
you're making wedding videos for distribution to family
members, then you might select (-) media, to try to get
really old DVD drives to work.

Paul

[Daniel70]

Post by Dan Purgert

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but
then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

Was something to do with the dyes and actual burn logic (i.e. "which
consortium are you buying into?") -- a lot like betamax vs. VHS (etc.)
As I recall, one of them died out; or drives converged and everything
burns anything at this point (unless you have a 15-20 year old burner,
in which case ... )

Hmm!! Now that you mention it, Dan, my HP 6730b Laptop (which I'd be
using to do the burning) is vintage 2007!! ;-P

[Jasen Betts]

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but
then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

Different chemical process.

Post by Daniel70
Back in the day (70's/80's), I used to do some Digital work where 'they'
talked about Positive Logic (Ones = +5V, Zeros = Zero volts) and
Negative Logic (Ones = Zero Volts and Zeros = +5V or even Ones = -5V and
Zeros = Zero Volts), so I can understand/accept that there are
differences ..... but with DVDs??

Different strength of laser pulses I think.

Post by Daniel70
On a +R DVD, are the 'Ones' high points on the disk whilst on a -R DVD
are the 'ones' the low points on the disk?? (Or, rather than 'highs' and
'lows', is it a case of the orientations of the 'North Poles' and 'South
Poles' of the Domains??)

The sifference between + and - is one bit in ASCII. in DVD R "+" is
a newer technology, and older DVD-R drives can't write it.


A spool of DVDs say 50 pieces, that's like 250GB.

Why do this? USB flash is cheaper, SSDs are cheaper. Hard drives are much
cheaper.

[Paul]

Post by Jasen Betts

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but
then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)
Which got me thinking ...... What's the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R??

Different chemical process.

Post by Daniel70
Back in the day (70's/80's), I used to do some Digital work where 'they'
talked about Positive Logic (Ones = +5V, Zeros = Zero volts) and
Negative Logic (Ones = Zero Volts and Zeros = +5V or even Ones = -5V and
Zeros = Zero Volts), so I can understand/accept that there are
differences ..... but with DVDs??

Different strength of laser pulses I think.

Post by Daniel70
On a +R DVD, are the 'Ones' high points on the disk whilst on a -R DVD
are the 'ones' the low points on the disk?? (Or, rather than 'highs' and
'lows', is it a case of the orientations of the 'North Poles' and 'South
Poles' of the Domains??)

The sifference between + and - is one bit in ASCII. in DVD R "+" is
a newer technology, and older DVD-R drives can't write it.
A spool of DVDs say 50 pieces, that's like 250GB.
Why do this? USB flash is cheaper, SSDs are cheaper. Hard drives are much
cheaper.

The lasers have programmable strength.

read is different than write is different than erase strength.

The media tag indicates the strength, and as well there is
a burn experiment the drive can do to determine the strength.
But the instructions in the media tag would generally give a
better result.

And the chemistry and appearance are interesting, even if
they don't match the colors you see at home right now :-)

https://ccssinc.net/index.php?main_page=cdr_dye_explained

At least we see why the gold-colored media is archival.
The PhthaloCyanine is transparent.

Paul


Paul

[TJ]

Post by Daniel70
I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll
want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the
'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but
then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)

I remember the problems of working with floppies, and the advertised
claims that DVDs would outlast me in storage, so I took to using them
for archival storage - until I found the ones I had burned were
deteriorating just a year later.

I find commercially-produced DVDs hold up very well indeed, but
home-burned ones, not so much. Not only that, but each single-layer DVD
holds just a bit under 5GB, meaning that I was amassing a LOT of burned
DVDs.

I switched to an external hard drive, and never looked back. A 1 TB
drive that I can hold in the palm of my hand can hold as much as roughly
200 DVDs, it's faster to write on/to, and it lasts for a very, very long
time.

My newest desktop build doesn't even have an optical drive, and I took
the optical drives out of my laptops to replace them with a second hard
drive. I put one of those optical drives in an external USB case for
that maybe once a year when I want to use one.

And I don't miss them, even a little bit.

TJ

[Paul]

I've got a PVR who's HD is getting pretty full (90%+) with programs I'll want to watch some day ... so I was thinking about coping some of the 'Keeper' programs onto DVD which meant buying a spool of DVD's.... but then needed to check if I needed DVD-R or DVD+R disks. (It is DVD-R)

I remember the problems of working with floppies, and the advertised claims that DVDs would outlast me in storage, so I took to using them for archival storage - until I found the ones I had burned were deteriorating just a year later.
I find commercially-produced DVDs hold up very well indeed, but home-burned ones, not so much. Not only that, but each single-layer DVD holds just a bit under 5GB, meaning that I was amassing a LOT of burned DVDs.
I switched to an external hard drive, and never looked back. A 1 TB drive that I can hold in the palm of my hand can hold as much as roughly 200 DVDs, it's faster to write on/to, and it lasts for a very, very long time.
My newest desktop build doesn't even have an optical drive, and I took the optical drives out of my laptops to replace them with a second hard drive. I put one of those optical drives in an external USB case for that maybe once a year when I want to use one.
And I don't miss them, even a little bit.
TJ

These things worked better if you understood the "lore" of optical media.
And there were specialist web sites with the information you needed.

For example, when a new optical drive model would come out, someone
would do a review. They would use their Liteon drive to do an "error scan"
after the new drive did a burn, and see what "characteristic" showed itself.

Optical media is never error free. A good burn has a flat characteristic, and
around 10 errors per unit. Optical media has powerful error correction,
and the technology influenced how error correction was done on SSD drives
(the techniques are much more powerful than a Fire Code on a hard drive ECC).

Bad burns, sometimes, "near the end of the disc", the scan would reveal
a rising error rate, that would rise to 10^4 and at that point, the drive
would start to lose the ability to stay locked to the groove. The drive "goes
crazy" when this happens, as the firmware is designed to make that the
number one priority, ignoring all other interfaces (such as the eject button).

Bad burns happen, when the drive does not have the media tag in its repertoire.
Some brands of drive, would "rush to market" with about half the media tags,
and a flash upgrade was available later, to add in the missing tags. But other
brands, might never produce new firmwares. The drives started with one
file, but later there were two things to flash in the drive.

There were also bootleg firmwares, for Region Free and removal of Rip Lock.
I removed a Rip Lock on one of my drives.

If you do an optical disc burn, and it has the rising error characteristic
at the end of it, chances are, this is a disc that is going to fail to work
well a year from now. It is unlikely that the disc will remain "stable forever"
with that characteristic present.

The retailer does not normally make the discs. A third party makes the discs,
in a rather large factory. Tao Yuden, for example, had a good reputation
among hobbyists, and made good media. But they didn't have the distribution
muscle of some of the contenders. Where I live, the odds of TY being on a
shelf was just about zero. What I used, was Ritek, which worked "just fine"
and it retailed as Maxell or Fujitsu, or a few other fake brands I forget.
The second last lot of disc blanks I bought, were "Philips", which is
a fake name, and the discs are actually made by CMC, and not all their
media is a keeper. I still have some of those left.

I wasn't exactly pleased that this topic involved "lore" and "hobbyists",
but in the end, I got decent results. The only media with a serious loss
problem, was some Memorex CDRW, in which one disc was so bad, that
it was completely transparent after three months. And if you shoved
that disc in the drive, the drive would ignore the eject button while
it tried to find the spiral groove. Miserable stuff. Nothing ever approached
being that bad, since. Some of the blanks burned, but did not pass a verify
(which means a scan would have shown 10^4 error rate). But the transparent one,
you couldn't even burn it... as there was nothing to burn. It looked like
a Polycarbonate disc.

Pressed discs are an entirely different process than write-able media.
The write-able media can be "write once", or it can be "write multiple".
On the RW write multiple, there is an "erase" command to prepare the
media for another write session. Whereas the write-once, you cannot
erase that stuff. As for the erase command, some situations allow
"Quick Erase", other situations demand "Full Erase" which takes forever.
And I don't really know what the trigger is for those. You can ask for a
Quick, and the software can tell you "piss off, I'm doing a Full".

BluRay disc blanks, are available up to 100GB capacity. Each blank
was quite expensive (whatever the market will bear), so there was
no particular savings to be had over usage of DVD when first introduced.
And now, the topic is all but irrelevant, as there is less media
available out there. There aren't many BluRay drives left (I never
bought one of those, could not think of a use-case).

In a way, it was like its own little hobby. Like stamp collecting.

Paul

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by TJ
I remember the problems of working with floppies, and the advertised
claims that DVDs would outlast me in storage, so I took to using them
for archival storage - until I found the ones I had burned were
deteriorating just a year later.

Depends on the brand. I was sticking to reputable ones, like Sony,
Verbatim and TDK. Also I see in my stack I had a few Mitsubishi ones.