Remote login

[Carlos E.R.]

Hi,

A friend has asked if it is today possible to login graphically to a
Linux machine and obtain a *new* session. Not login to an existing
session. And get a full desktop with all features.

[Lew Pitcher]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Hi,
A friend has asked if it is today possible to login graphically to a
Linux machine and obtain a *new* session. Not login to an existing
session. And get a full desktop with all features.

Sure, it's possible. I do it regularly when I'm away from home.

The only "tricky" part is to get "a full desktop with all the features"
(whatever that means to your friend).

[Lew Pitcher]

I should clarify this reply a bit...

Post by Lew Pitcher

Post by Carlos E.R.
Hi,
A friend has asked if it is today possible to login graphically to a
Linux machine and obtain a *new* session. Not login to an existing
session. And get a full desktop with all features.

Sure, it's possible. I do it regularly when I'm away from home.
The only "tricky" part is to get "a full desktop with all the features"
(whatever that means to your friend).

What does your friend mean by "get a full desktop with all features"?

I use X11 on both the remote and local systems, with (depending on my
trust of the network) either basic X11 tcp networking, or X11 "local"
networking and SSH port forwarding. The local system provides a local
desktop, and the display for the windows I open on the remote system.

/IF/ I want to see a window on the local system that /contains/ the
entire remote desktop, I use Xnest[1] on the remote system.

As for "with all the features", some extensions (like the use of
OpenGL effects) only work with directly-attached display devices
(because they directly interact with the graphics device GPU),
and do not work across networked X11. So, the answer really lies in
what your friend defines as "a full desktop with all features".


[1] Xnest(1)
I wrote about how to do this on Raspbian at http://justlinux.ca/node/82

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Lew Pitcher
I should clarify this reply a bit...

Post by Lew Pitcher

Post by Carlos E.R.
Hi,
A friend has asked if it is today possible to login graphically to a
Linux machine and obtain a *new* session. Not login to an existing
session. And get a full desktop with all features.

Sure, it's possible. I do it regularly when I'm away from home.
The only "tricky" part is to get "a full desktop with all the features"
(whatever that means to your friend).

What does your friend mean by "get a full desktop with all features"?

Get the same whole thing he get when he logins to Plasma, or Gnome, or
XFCE. The menus, the windows, the background, everything.

Post by Lew Pitcher
I use X11 on both the remote and local systems, with (depending on my
trust of the network) either basic X11 tcp networking, or X11 "local"
networking and SSH port forwarding. The local system provides a local
desktop, and the display for the windows I open on the remote system.
/IF/ I want to see a window on the local system that /contains/ the
entire remote desktop, I use Xnest[1] on the remote system.

Ok, that could be.

Post by Lew Pitcher
As for "with all the features", some extensions (like the use of
OpenGL effects) only work with directly-attached display devices
(because they directly interact with the graphics device GPU),
and do not work across networked X11. So, the answer really lies in
what your friend defines as "a full desktop with all features".

Fair enough.

Post by Lew Pitcher
[1] Xnest(1)
I wrote about how to do this on Raspbian at http://justlinux.ca/node/82

Thanks.

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <v0gasa$3mu93$***@dont-email.me>,
Lew Pitcher <***@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
...

Post by Lew Pitcher
What does your friend mean by "get a full desktop with all features"?

Well, that is the key to it all, isn't it?

It seems to me that there are basically 3 levels that we are talking about
here:
1) Just a shell (terminal window). Us old-timers really just want a
shell (with SSH X11-forwarding active). We know how to invoke a
GUI program from the shell if the need arises.

2) Access to an X11 "desktop" - and I put that in quotes because it is
not really a desktop in the MS Windows sense (see next topic for
that); really, it is just a "window manager" in X11 terminology.
Real hardcores (like you and me) snort at anything more complex
than "twm" (the only window manager you will ever need).

3) A full blown desktop, with all the bells and whistles, like you get
with MS Windows. This is what Linux has (supposedly) been striving
for for decades now; they never quite seem to get there.
Nevertheless, this seems to be what OP, er, I mean, OP's "friend",
wants.

By the way, I used to do something like this, where I was running a GUI
program on a remote host and viewing it on my local. Originally, I was
using SSH X-forwarding, but it seemed sluggish, so I switched to using
(tight-) VNC instead, and it was much faster. From what I've read and
heard, this is a "known thing" - SSH's X-forwarding is not particularly
fast over a WAN connection. I still use X-forwarding on local connections,
though.

Finally, I think the best answer for OP is to use VNC, and to use the
capability it has of generating a brand new session for you. The funny
thing is that this mode (generating a brand new session) is the default, but
it *usually* not what people want. What people usually want is just a
mirror of what is on the actual machine. For that, I use x11vnc. But in
this case, it sounds like what OP ('s friend) is requesting.

Post by Lew Pitcher
I use X11 on both the remote and local systems, with (depending on my
trust of the network) either basic X11 tcp networking, or X11 "local"
networking and SSH port forwarding. The local system provides a local
desktop, and the display for the windows I open on the remote system.
/IF/ I want to see a window on the local system that /contains/ the
entire remote desktop, I use Xnest[1] on the remote system.
As for "with all the features", some extensions (like the use of
OpenGL effects) only work with directly-attached display devices
(because they directly interact with the graphics device GPU),
and do not work across networked X11. So, the answer really lies in
what your friend defines as "a full desktop with all features".

Yeah, I've never heard of Xnest, but your description sounded like Xephyr
to me. According to my research, Xnest is old and is considered superseded
by Xephyr (which, according to my reading, *does* support X "extensions").

Post by Lew Pitcher
[1] Xnest(1)
I wrote about how to do this on Raspbian at http://justlinux.ca/node/82

I read that. It seems like Xnest has been superseded by Xephyr.

[Lew Pitcher]

Post by Kenny McCormack
...

Post by Lew Pitcher
What does your friend mean by "get a full desktop with all features"?

[snip]

Post by Kenny McCormack
Yeah, I've never heard of Xnest, but your description sounded like Xephyr
to me. According to my research, Xnest is old and is considered superseded
by Xephyr (which, according to my reading, *does* support X "extensions").

Thanks for pointing Xephyr out; I've never really investigated it. I may
revise my article to include it.

Post by Kenny McCormack

Post by Lew Pitcher
[1] Xnest(1)
I wrote about how to do this on Raspbian at http://justlinux.ca/node/82

I read that. It seems like Xnest has been superseded by Xephyr.

Thanks. I learned something new today.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Kenny McCormack
...

Post by Lew Pitcher
What does your friend mean by "get a full desktop with all features"?

Well, that is the key to it all, isn't it?
It seems to me that there are basically 3 levels that we are talking about
1) Just a shell (terminal window). Us old-timers really just want a
shell (with SSH X11-forwarding active). We know how to invoke a
GUI program from the shell if the need arises.

Not this one.

Post by Kenny McCormack
2) Access to an X11 "desktop" - and I put that in quotes because it is
not really a desktop in the MS Windows sense (see next topic for
that); really, it is just a "window manager" in X11 terminology.
Real hardcores (like you and me) snort at anything more complex
than "twm" (the only window manager you will ever need).
3) A full blown desktop, with all the bells and whistles, like you get
with MS Windows. This is what Linux has (supposedly) been striving
for for decades now; they never quite seem to get there.
Nevertheless, this seems to be what OP, er, I mean, OP's "friend",
wants.

I think so.

Post by Kenny McCormack
By the way, I used to do something like this, where I was running a GUI
program on a remote host and viewing it on my local. Originally, I was
using SSH X-forwarding, but it seemed sluggish, so I switched to using
(tight-) VNC instead, and it was much faster. From what I've read and
heard, this is a "known thing" - SSH's X-forwarding is not particularly
fast over a WAN connection. I still use X-forwarding on local connections,
though.
Finally, I think the best answer for OP is to use VNC, and to use the
capability it has of generating a brand new session for you. The funny
thing is that this mode (generating a brand new session) is the default, but
it *usually* not what people want. What people usually want is just a
mirror of what is on the actual machine. For that, I use x11vnc. But in
this case, it sounds like what OP ('s friend) is requesting.

Not a mirror, but a new session.

Post by Kenny McCormack

Post by Lew Pitcher
I use X11 on both the remote and local systems, with (depending on my
trust of the network) either basic X11 tcp networking, or X11 "local"
networking and SSH port forwarding. The local system provides a local
desktop, and the display for the windows I open on the remote system.
/IF/ I want to see a window on the local system that /contains/ the
entire remote desktop, I use Xnest[1] on the remote system.
As for "with all the features", some extensions (like the use of
OpenGL effects) only work with directly-attached display devices
(because they directly interact with the graphics device GPU),
and do not work across networked X11. So, the answer really lies in
what your friend defines as "a full desktop with all features".

Yeah, I've never heard of Xnest, but your description sounded like Xephyr
to me. According to my research, Xnest is old and is considered superseded
by Xephyr (which, according to my reading, *does* support X "extensions").

Post by Lew Pitcher
[1] Xnest(1)
I wrote about how to do this on Raspbian at http://justlinux.ca/node/82

I read that. It seems like Xnest has been superseded by Xephyr.

Ah, ok.

[Jasen Betts]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Hi,
A friend has asked if it is today possible to login graphically to a
Linux machine and obtain a *new* session. Not login to an existing
session. And get a full desktop with all features.

I'm pretty sure "xdm" is still a thing, also "xvnc" and "xrdp"

[vallor]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 23:01:40 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts

Post by Jasen Betts

Post by Carlos E.R.
Hi,
A friend has asked if it is today possible to login graphically to a
Linux machine and obtain a *new* session. Not login to an existing
session. And get a full desktop with all features.

I'm pretty sure "xdm" is still a thing, also "xvnc" and "xrdp"

Thank you for your post, you reminded me of xdm, which can handle
session management using the X Display Manager Control Protocol
(XDMCP). No idea how you'd do that with MS Windows, though...

(Hmm...does Wayland have something similar to XDMCP? (Ha, not likely...) )

Cygwin had an X server last time I used it, and it could be run
"rootless" so that an X window would appear to be a native MS Windows
window.

[Jasen Betts]

Post by vallor
On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 23:01:40 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts

Post by Jasen Betts

Post by Carlos E.R.
Hi,
A friend has asked if it is today possible to login graphically to a
Linux machine and obtain a *new* session. Not login to an existing
session. And get a full desktop with all features.

I'm pretty sure "xdm" is still a thing, also "xvnc" and "xrdp"

Thank you for your post, you reminded me of xdm, which can handle
session management using the X Display Manager Control Protocol
(XDMCP). No idea how you'd do that with MS Windows, though...

Oh windows... use xrdp then, its a translation layer over xvnc, which
itself manages x11vnc running on an Xvfb session. it provides access
to an X session over a windows remote desktop compatible session.

Post by vallor
Cygwin had an X server last time I used it, and it could be run
"rootless" so that an X window would appear to be a native MS Windows
window.

There's also WSL now too, but I've never touched it.

[J.O. Aho]

Post by Jasen Betts

Post by vallor
Cygwin had an X server last time I used it, and it could be run
"rootless" so that an X window would appear to be a native MS Windows
window.

There's also WSL now too, but I've never touched it.

Nowadays WLS do have X11 support out of the box, so you could do the X11
over ssh as you would on Linux or all the other options available in
Linux (don't forget to install the package you need).

Have been forced to extend my work computer so it's possible to make
proper work on it.

[Paul]

Post by Jasen Betts

Post by vallor
Cygwin had an X server last time I used it, and it could be run
"rootless" so that an X window would appear to be a native MS Windows
window.

There's also WSL now too, but I've never touched it.

Nowadays WLS do have X11 support out of the box, so you could do the X11 over ssh as you would on Linux or all the other options available in Linux (don't forget to install the package you need).
Have been forced to extend my work computer so it's possible to make proper work on it.

When Bash shell first came out on Windows (Win10), the graphics
were missing. XMing filled in the gaps and provided an XServer.
WSL now has WSLg and that's a graphics subsystem for the job now.
Installing XMing is no longer required.

[Picture]

Loading Image...

Paul

[Richard Kettlewell]

Post by Jasen Betts

Post by vallor
Cygwin had an X server last time I used it, and it could be run
"rootless" so that an X window would appear to be a native MS Windows
window.

There's also WSL now too, but I've never touched it.

I have been using WSL’s X server lately. It seems to work OK for
relatively light use (e.g. Emacs). I’ve not tried to give it anything
more challenging than that.

[Paul]

Post by Richard Kettlewell

Post by Jasen Betts

Post by vallor
Cygwin had an X server last time I used it, and it could be run
"rootless" so that an X window would appear to be a native MS Windows
window.

There's also WSL now too, but I've never touched it.

I have been using WSL’s X server lately. It seems to work OK for
relatively light use (e.g. Emacs). I’ve not tried to give it anything
more challenging than that.

I run Firefox on it.

The graphics stack is pretty impressive. And one
of the things that impressed me, is the time it
took to go from "barely working" to "tuned". Only
a week or two. Whoever did the work, "had experience" :-)
It wasn't run like a lot of Microsoft projects.
It had real Linux people in the pits.

One of the layers of the graphics stack, seems to be Terminal Services,
and I suspect that's how it gets to the Windows desktop.

$ xdpyinfo
name of display: :0
version number: 11.0
vendor string: Microsoft Corporation
vendor release number: 12010000
maximum request size: 16777212 bytes
motion buffer size: 256
bitmap unit, bit order, padding: 32, LSBFirst, 32
image byte order: LSBFirst
number of supported pixmap formats: 7
supported pixmap formats:
depth 1, bits_per_pixel 1, scanline_pad 32
depth 4, bits_per_pixel 8, scanline_pad 32
depth 8, bits_per_pixel 8, scanline_pad 32
depth 15, bits_per_pixel 16, scanline_pad 32
depth 16, bits_per_pixel 16, scanline_pad 32
depth 24, bits_per_pixel 32, scanline_pad 32
depth 32, bits_per_pixel 32, scanline_pad 32
keycode range: minimum 8, maximum 255
focus: None
number of extensions: 22
BIG-REQUESTS
Composite
DAMAGE
DOUBLE-BUFFER
GLX
Generic Event Extension
MIT-SHM
Present
RANDR
RECORD
RENDER
SHAPE
SYNC
X-Resource
XC-MISC
XFIXES
XFree86-VidModeExtension
XINERAMA
XInputExtension
XKEYBOARD
XTEST
XVideo
default screen number: 0
number of screens: 1

screen #0:
dimensions: 1440x900 pixels (381x238 millimeters)

$ inxi -G
Graphics: Device-1: Microsoft driver: dxgkrnl v: 2.0.2
Display: wayland-0 server: Microsoft Corporation X.org 11.0 driver: dxgkrnl resolution: 1440x900~60Hz
OpenGL: renderer: D3D12 (NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti) v: 3.3 Mesa 21.2.6

The renderer seems to be wired up (judging by Task Manager info), but...
it's not very fast.

$ vulkaninfo
WARNING: lavapipe is not a conformant vulkan implementation, testing use only.
==========
VULKANINFO
==========

Vulkan Instance Version: 1.2.131


Instance Extensions: count = 18
====================
VK_EXT_acquire_xlib_display : extension revision 1 ...

[Picture] Vulkan Cube (it rotates at a good clip in person -- snapshotting it, stops it)

Loading Image...

GLXGears doesn't seem to be accelerated.
However, in W11 Task Manager, the hardware GPU indicates it is
running at 40% at the moment, to make these paltry frame rates
for the animation.

$ glxgears
900 frames in 5.0 seconds = 179.969 FPS
905 frames in 5.0 seconds = 180.885 FPS
875 frames in 5.0 seconds = 174.880 FPS

$ __GL_SYNC_TO_VBLANK=0 glxgears
871 frames in 5.0 seconds = 174.049 FPS
856 frames in 5.0 seconds = 171.168 FPS
862 frames in 5.0 seconds = 172.282 FPS

$ vblank_mode=0 glxgears
ATTENTION: default value of option vblank_mode overridden by environment.
894 frames in 5.0 seconds = 178.791 FPS
882 frames in 5.0 seconds = 176.348 FPS

There are toys, and no lack of weirdness :-)

Paul

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Jasen Betts

Post by vallor
Thank you for your post, you reminded me of xdm, which can handle
session management using the X Display Manager Control Protocol
(XDMCP). No idea how you'd do that with MS Windows, though...

Oh windows... use xrdp then, its a translation layer over xvnc, which
itself manages x11vnc running on an Xvfb session. it provides access
to an X session over a windows remote desktop compatible session.

I use xrdp from a Windows machine and it works well BUT I have to
physically log off the Linux machine before I can connect and vice versa
hen I want to go back the the physical machine. In addition I can't shut
the Linux machine down via RDP.

[stepore]

Post by Carlos E.R.
A friend has asked if it is today possible to login graphically to a
Linux machine and obtain a *new* session. Not login to an existing
session. And get a full desktop with all features.

I use KVM ( hypervisor ) with small(er) footprint VM guests and then use
SPICE as the remote connection protocol. Works great and best
graphical/audio performance I've seen. Spice client is built into
virt-viewer/virt-manager.

If your gonna use a real PC (bare metal) to connect to. I'd use X2go
server on the PC, X2go client on the client. All traffic is over ssh and
is very efficient and fast. Supports XFCE/Mate (Gnome not so much).

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Hi,
A friend has asked if it is today possible to login graphically to a
Linux machine and obtain a *new* session. Not login to an existing
session. And get a full desktop with all features.

Thanks, folks, I will pass your replies to my friend :-)