Quick cross-platform question on Ubuntu/MacOS dual boot basics

[Arlen H. Holder]

Quick question about Ubuntu/MacOS dual boot basics.
I ask here and leave off the Apple folks since they just play silly games.

In your experience...
Q: Can the Mac dual boot to Ubuntu or at least boot off a bootable DVD?
A: ?

Q: If yes, does Ubuntu recognize the native Mac file system?
A: ?

[Mike Easter]

Post by Arlen H. Holder
In your experience...

No experience.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Q: Can the Mac dual boot to Ubuntu or at least boot off a bootable DVD?
A: ?

Yes. This 2018 Jun article tells how to make a bootable Ub USB with the
Mac and boot it and install it to a Mac part.

https://www.lifewire.com/dual-boot-linux-and-mac-os-4125733 How to
Install and Dual Boot Linux and Mac OS

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Q: If yes, does Ubuntu recognize the native Mac file system?
A: ?

Yes; you just have to disable journaling in the HFS.

https://lifehacker.com/5702815/the-complete-guide-to-sharing-your-data-across-multiple-operating-systems
A Comprehensive Guide to Sharing Your Data Across Multi-Booting
Windows, Mac, and Linux PCs

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Mike Easter
Yes. This 2018 Jun article tells how to make a bootable Ub USB with the
Mac and boot it and install it to a Mac part.
https://www.lifewire.com/dual-boot-linux-and-mac-os-4125733 How to
Install and Dual Boot Linux and Mac OS

Hi Mike Easter,
Thanks for that information.

This means the Mac can...
a. Be set up for (permanent) dual boot to Ubuntu 18.04, or,
b. Boot off a temporary Ubuntui 18.04 DVD or USB stick

Post by Mike Easter

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Q: If yes, does Ubuntu recognize the native Mac file system?
A: ?

Yes; you just have to disable journaling in the HFS.

Thanks. With Windows, you have to disable "hibernation", so that's not
unusual to have to make minor tweaks to the "main" operating system.

Your information is _great_ news, which means that, instantly, Mac users
have the same power that everyone else has in making the iOS device into a
read/write USB stick simply by booting to Ubuntu 18.04 for free.

There are no hurdles now.

[R.Wieser]

Arlen,

Q: Can the Mac dual boot to Ubuntu or at least boot off a bootable DVD?
A: ? Use Google.

Q: If yes, does Ubuntu recognize the native Mac file system?
A: ? Use Google.

And yes, I just did. Less than 30 seconds and I had both questions
answered.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
I ask here and leave off the Apple folks since they just play silly games.

It looks like they are not the only ones playing "silly games" ...

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by R.Wieser
It looks like they are not the only ones playing "silly games" ...

Hi Rudy Wieser,

You are a cowardly bully who is a well known worthless troll (mostly on the
WinXP ngs, where your worthless patently unhelpful trolls are legendary).

I only speak facts.

You have _never_ once added value to _any_ thread, and you certainly didn't
add any value here (hint: You can't ... you're a worthless troll).

You've never once written a tutorial to help others.
All you _can_ do, Rudy Wieser, is troll.

Your post, and mine responding to your cowardly bullying, is just wasting
everyone's time, as you _never_ once had helpful intent. Not once.

As you know, I've written thousands of tutorials, where I asked first on
the Mac newsgroups, where they said it couldn't be done, despite what you
might read in the papers.

I believe what Mike Easter supplied, as both his references appeared
trustworthy, and, most importantly, unlike you, the worthless troll Rudy
Wieser, Mike Easter posts with purposefully helpful intent.

What I'm trying to accomplish is well beyond your capabilities, Rudy
Wieser, simply because you have _never_ added a single iota of added value
to _any_ technical thread in your entire life.

Your post was devoid of helpful intent.
Mine is to write up a tutorial that adds the MacOS to the cross platform
capabilities that almost nobody knows about.

Think about *adding value* the next time you troll, you cowardly bully.

Here's the start of that tutorial where I hope, thanks to Mike Easter's
advice, to add the Mac to the existing capabilities of Windows, Android,
Linux, and iOS:
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/IFC52JXBQ1c>

[Dan Purgert]

Post by R.Wieser
Arlen,
Q: Can the Mac dual boot to Ubuntu or at least boot off a bootable DVD?
A: ? Use Google.
Q: If yes, does Ubuntu recognize the native Mac file system?
A: ? Use Google.
And yes, I just did. Less than 30 seconds and I had both questions
answered.

You did it wrong. You're supposed to write a novella about how your
method is revolutionary and that it's incomprehensible how no one has
thought of your process before.

and something about "facts".

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Dan Purgert
You did it wrong. You're supposed to write a novella about how your
method is revolutionary and that it's incomprehensible how no one has
thought of your process before.
and something about "facts".

Stop playing your silly childish games Dan Purgert.
It only proves you have no value to add.

How many tutorials on the subject have _you_ written, Dan?
HINT: Zero.

Seriously. I'm trying to further the capabilities of the Apple users so
that they can boot to Ubuntu in order to turn their iOS device into a
read/write USB stick.

This is something they've wanted for *years*.

For you to play silly games, Dan Purgert, and for me to waste my time
responding to your cowardly bullying, Dan Purgert, is childish for both of
us.

*Please act like an adult, Dan Purgert.*

[Dan Purgert]

Post by Arlen H. Holder

Post by Dan Purgert
You did it wrong. You're supposed to write a novella about how your
method is revolutionary and that it's incomprehensible how no one has
thought of your process before.
and something about "facts".

Stop playing your silly childish games Dan Purgert.
It only proves you have no value to add.A

Except where i pointed out why secondary and tertiary transfers of the
same data took a fraction of the time of the initial. Or pointed out
that there are alternatives to "go to your computer and use usb.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
How many tutorials on the subject have _you_ written, Dan?
HINT: Zero.

Actually, i wrote multiple tutorials during my time on my university's
helldesk. Granted, that was like 10 years ago now, and if i still have
backups, they're less than useless these days.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
[...]
For you to play silly games, Dan Purgert, and for me to waste my time
responding to your cowardly bullying, Dan Purgert, is childish for both of
us.

Bullying? Hardly. Games? Sure, this was a tongue-in-cheek response to a
likewise silly jab at this thread's topic.

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Dan Purgert
Except where i pointed out why secondary and tertiary transfers of the
same data took a fraction of the time of the initial. Or pointed out
that there are alternatives to "go to your computer and use usb.

Dan Purgert,

This isnt' my first rodeo with worthless trolls like you, Dan Purgert.
Frank Slootweg said the same thing you did, for example.

He thinks because once in his life he was helpful, that he can then troll
with abandon, like you did, and we'll all give him a "bye".

Let me give you a big hint, Dan Purgert:
a. My strategy has been honed over decades of being on Usenet
b. My tactics have been honed over decades of being on Usenet

The strategy is designed to funnel you into acting like an adult.
The tactics are to exactly *mirror* your attitude in my responses.

I ignore you, Dan Purgert, in threads I don't care about coming to a
resolution.

I only bother to mirror your posts in the threads I author, where I care
very much that they come to a successful conclusion since I rarely author a
thread that doesn't *ask* a question.

Usenet is a "pot luck" where you have the choice, Dan Purgert
a. You can bring a pile of shit to the table, or,
b. You can bring something to share with everyone else.

Remember, there are (at least) two different use models:
a. Chitchat (where you're not trying to accomplish anything)
b. FAQ (where you're trying to answer a question)

You use the chitchat model, clearly, where you don't care that you just
shit on the potluck picnic table. What you want me to do is to remember the
times you did NOT shit on the potluck picnic table and to ignore the fact
that you just shit on this potluck picnic table.

If you were Paul, or Mike Easter, or Marek, etc., then, sure, I'd cut you
some slack. But you're not even close to them in terms of what you offer to
improve the overall tribal knowledge of the group.

You shit on the potluck picnic table, and I'll call you out on it.
You bring something of use to others for the potluck, & we all appreciate
it.

HINT: I use the word 'shit' purposefully, as that's what you did.

Post by Dan Purgert

Post by Arlen H. Holder
How many tutorials on the subject have _you_ written, Dan?
HINT: Zero.

Actually, i wrote multiple tutorials during my time on my university's
helldesk. Granted, that was like 10 years ago now, and if i still have
backups, they're less than useless these days.

I have likely written over ten thousand tutorials, where at my last
company, I wrote over five thousand alone. On the Internet, I don't know
how many I have, but if you assume that I write one a day sometimes, and at
least one a week, I have many thousands (i.e., I'm on many web forums).

The fact is that I'm *trying to get something done here*.
For you to shit on the table brings no value to anyone.

Post by Dan Purgert
Bullying? Hardly. Games? Sure, this was a tongue-in-cheek response to a
likewise silly jab at this thread's topic.

What you did was cowardly bullying and I called you out on it.

For you to shit on the table brings no value to anyone.
For me to have to tell you that wastes everyone's time, plus yours & mine.

Just act like an adult - and I'll mirror how you act.
It's a very simple equation, Dan Purgert.

This is the tutorial we're trying to hone, so that the Mac is included.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/IFC52JXBQ1c>

It contains hints that *nobody* on this newsgroup knows, and you know that
I checked with everyone before I said that. Everyone *thinks* they know it,
but they don't (because it's not intuitive how to make iOS writeable for
example).

It would be an adult thing, if you can add value to _that_ tutorial, as
Mike Easter just did earlier today.

That's what adults do - they add value.
Adults are funny that way.

Let's move on.
I treat every post in the manner it was meant,.

Just act like an adult in the _next_ post, and I'll mirror your attitude.

[Danny DeVito]

Post by Arlen H. Holder
a. My strategy has been honed over decades of being on Usenet
b. My tactics have been honed over decades of being on Usenet

"decades experience" and you are still as stupid as ever. Why is this
so Arlene? Is it because something is wrong with you mentally?

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Danny DeVito
"decades experience" and you are still as stupid as ever. Why is this
so Arlene? Is it because something is wrong with you mentally?

I think it's funny that someone with _zero_ added value, calls others
stupid, just as Cybe R. Wizard, with zero tutorials to his name, challenges
me on mine.

I'm always about:
a. Asking a question
b. Working the answers faithfully (and confronting coward bullies like you)
c. Writing up a solution for the tribal archives so all always benefit

Since I'm trying to _help_ people (I'm not just clickbait seeking
advertisers), I test and list _every single step_ in my tutorials.

They're easy to spot.

Here's just one tutorial that I wrote for the tribal archives where every
single step is documented (that's my style, I do not skip a single step,
which I do so that anyone can follow in my footsteps):
How to set up a spare Linksys WRT54Gv2 as a wired access point network extender
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.internet.wireless/2lVd_lNhNi0/zjk8PhsCATgJ>

I do this because I _care_ to help people.
I add value.

As an adult who cares about his credibility, I showed you one of my added
value posts.

What's _your_ added value, "Danny DeVito"?
Name just one added value on Usenet (with cites, just like I gave you).

What's _your_ added value, "Danny DeVito"?
Name just one.

Just one.

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 12:29:45 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Cybe R. Wizard, with zero tutorials to his name, challenges
me on mine.

It's interesting how I've never counted something as mundane and
non-consequential as writing a tutorial on some odd thing to be of any
import in my life, but still have the vast knowledge to recognize that
you are very unlikely to have written 10 /THOUSAND/ tutorials of your
own.

WOW, I can do math!

In fact, I think you to be a liar on that subject and, thus, to be
highly suspect on any other, no matter how much you rant on about it.

You're pretty funny. But pathetic.

Cybe R. Wizard

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by Cybe R. Wizard
On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 12:29:45 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Cybe R. Wizard, with zero tutorials to his name, challenges
me on mine.

It's interesting how I've never counted something as mundane and
non-consequential as writing a tutorial on some odd thing to be of any
import in my life, but still have the vast knowledge to recognize that
you are very unlikely to have written 10 /THOUSAND/ tutorials of your
own.
WOW, I can do math!
In fact, I think you to be a liar on that subject and, thus, to be
highly suspect on any other, no matter how much you rant on about it.
You're pretty funny. But pathetic.
Cybe R. Wizard

Mostly pathetic.

Rene

[Wildman]

Post by Cybe R. Wizard
On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 12:29:45 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Cybe R. Wizard, with zero tutorials to his name, challenges
me on mine.

It's interesting how I've never counted something as mundane and
non-consequential as writing a tutorial on some odd thing to be of any
import in my life, but still have the vast knowledge to recognize that
you are very unlikely to have written 10 /THOUSAND/ tutorials of your
own.
WOW, I can do math!
In fact, I think you to be a liar on that subject and, thus, to be
highly suspect on any other, no matter how much you rant on about it.
You're pretty funny. But pathetic.
Cybe R. Wizard

I think he should produce one more tutorial. How to pat
yourself on the back with both hands without breaking
your arms. That would be an interesting read.

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 01:31:51 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Arlen H. Holder
I have likely written over ten thousand tutorials

One a day including weekends for over 27 years! Now, THAT'S impressive!

Post by Arlen H. Holder
where at my last
company, I wrote over five thousand alone.

One a day, /EVERY/ for almost 14 years! How long were you on that job?
How old did you say you are?

I call BS.

Cybe R. Wizard

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Cybe R. Wizard
I call BS.
Cybe R. Wizard

Who do you think worked with Marek in the first place, to test all the VPN
connection tutorials? (Marek wrote all the scripts, which I tested for him,
and used for years and then wrote up the tutorials for others to benefit,
mostly on Windows where the users aren't as technical as on Linux).
Please improve this setup which will get you torrenting on free public VPN in minutes
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/56KgMK6n090/HKhGegCAAQAJ>

We went through this very same accusation by Wolf K on the Windows
newsgoups (which Paul can concur).

I dug up *plenty* of tutorals for Wolf - which - again, Paul knows to be
factual.

Here's *just one* tutorial I wrote for linux (and Windows) users (because
I'm all about cross platform compatibility).
This is intended to be a vim turd file reference (please improve!)
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.os.linux/OoRWRJHWsUI/Hclp1L0YAwAJ>

Here's another on alt.os.linux:
What free tools, on Windows & Linux, georeference PDF maps?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.os.linux/cF_KHuysCfA/6jBbaeXPBAAJ>

And another for the a.o.l tribal archives:
Best way to put Linux on 2GB flash drive from WinXP?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.os.linux/Pjl29q_O-Dw/8H7W6jMKBQAJ>

And another value added to the a.o.l tribal archives:
How to back up Gmail using Linux getmail (20180306)
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.os.linux/6YHdHFcpGxs/sGgeAUDRBAAJ>

I do this in all the groups I post, and in the web sites I frequent, e.g.,
here's one containing *every single step* (yes, every single bolt) on how
to replace clutch for heaven's sake.
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.home.repair/qEhph1MmSKs/S_R2Y4gRBwAJ>

And here's one for setting up brilliantly fantastic consistent menus:
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/1PzeGP4KMTU/3tbj_mdSAwAJ>
And here's another for menuing batch commands (which isn't intuitive):
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/1PzeGP4KMTU/tTbcd9zxAAAJ>

Now, for you Cybe R. Wizard, show me one of your tutorials?
Just one please.

What's that?
You have none?

Really?
You have absolutely zero added value for the tribal archives?

You're _that_ shallow, Cybe R. Wizard?
That worthless?

You haven't written a _single_ tutorial in your entire life?
What good are you?

It's only fair, unless you're a feckless coward, Cybe R. Wizard, for me to
ask you the same question you asked me.

What value have you _added_ to the overall tribal knowledge of this group?
Name just one (with cites, like I provided you).

Just one.

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 12:08:41 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Arlen H. Holder
I dug up *plenty* of tutorals for Wolf - which - again, Paul knows to
be factual.

Cool! So show 10,000, as you said you have written.

Go ahead, just do it,

Otherwise, BS.

Easy-peasy.

You said it; produce it. Own it as if it were really yours.

Cybe R. Wizard

[Aragorn]

On Friday 21 September 2018 21:14, Arlen H. Holder conveyed the
following to alt.os.linux...

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Quick question about Ubuntu/MacOS dual boot basics.
I ask here and leave off the Apple folks since they just play silly games.
In your experience...
Q: Can the Mac dual boot to Ubuntu or at least boot off a bootable
DVD? A: ?

That should be possible, yes. For dual-boot installations, you should
look into something called Boot Camp, which ─ as I understand it ─ was
designed to allow Windows users to install Microsoft Windows on a Mac
alongside the native macOS. And if you can use it to install Microsoft
Windows on a Mac, then you most certainly can install GNU/Linux on it.

In fact, Linus Torvalds himself has or used to have a Mac that runs (or
ran) GNU/Linux, although that may still have been one of the PPC Macs,
from before Apple switched to Intel processors.

The PPC processor is (or was) either way supported by the upstream Linux
kernel. Of course, in that case you also needed a distro that was
compiled for PPC, and not all distros support an equally wide variety of
processor architectures.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Q: If yes, does Ubuntu recognize the native Mac file system?
A: ?

In read-only fashion, most certainly, yes, but I don't know whether
GNU/Linux can _write_ to HFS+. I seem to recall that it cannot, but
you'll have to put in the necessary legwork to discover that for
yourself as I don't personally own a Mac.

But even if it's writable, then I would still not advise using HFS+ as
the main filesystem for your Ubuntu system, because HFS+ is case-
retentive but not case-sensitive. You could however use a small HFS+
partition for sharing data with macOS ─ again, if it's writable to the
Linux kernel, which I don't know.

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Aragorn
That should be possible, yes. For dual-boot installations, you should
look into something called Boot Camp, which € as I understand it € was
designed to allow Windows users to install Microsoft Windows on a Mac
alongside the native macOS. And if you can use it to install Microsoft
Windows on a Mac, then you most certainly can install GNU/Linux on it.

Thanks Aragorn for your helpful advice.

I don't have a Mac anymore, so I was asking for the Mac user "Ant", and for
the Mac user "joe", who ran into some difficulty working with iOS, but who
has successfully booted to Ubuntu on the Mac.

Here is the post from "joe" showing that it worked, but then he ran into
the type of minor issues connecting to iOS that we linux users overcame
years ago, working together.
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.mac.system/zbrDzJbiBXQ/34fZ2Oc4CQAJ>

Here are the minor issues of the type we, together, solved long ago:
From: "joe"
"Your previous post indicated journaling needs to be turned off.
Without doing that you can't write to the Mac disk.
Do you expect Ant to reconfigure the other person's Mac?
For grins, I booted Ubuntu on a Mac, only the DCIM folder on the iPhone
was accessible, nothing else. Additionally, the Mac system disk was NOT
seen. So much for 'simple' and 'unrestricted'."

If we ignore the defeatism of this poster, "joe", we can see that he's
running into the same type of minor issues that I always run into every
time I break new ground getting cross-platform connectivity to work.

For example, who knew that Ubuntu wouldn't read Windows' filesystems if
Windows was set to hibernate. Not me. Until you guys told me so, and then I
was past that hurdle in a split second.

Likewise *nobody* knew that you had to remove the ":3" in order to make the
entire visible file system on iOS writeable! Who knew? Not me. But once I
figured that trick out, it was *trivial* to write to the entire file system
of iOS from Ubuntu.

All this, and more, is documented in my tutorial long ago written:
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/IFC52JXBQ1c>

If I had a Mac, I'm pretty sure I'd resolve those issues, with expert help,
as I (almost) always do, so all I can do in this case is encourage that Mac
user "joe" to not give up (I never do).

Just as I got Ubuntu to read and write to the entire visible file system of
iOS and Windows (with your help), I'm sure this method you and Mike Easter
fleshed out will work, if the Mac users don't just give up.

Think about the brilliance of that new tribal knowledge though.
It would mean that anyone on Mac, Linux, or Windows, could plug in any iOS
or Android device on the planet, and then read and write to the entire file
system of all _five_ file systems simultaneously!
1. Windows
2. Ubuntu
3. Mac
4. Android
5. iOS <=== this is _always_ the hardest one!

The brilliance of this method is that the trick is mainly to boot to
Ubuntu, and then, there are a few minor tweaks (e.g., Windows hibernation,
Mac journaling, :3, etc.).

Post by Aragorn

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Q: If yes, does Ubuntu recognize the native Mac file system?
A: ?

In read-only fashion, most certainly, yes, but I don't know whether
GNU/Linux can _write_ to HFS+. I seem to recall that it cannot, but
you'll have to put in the necessary legwork to discover that for
yourself as I don't personally own a Mac.

The user "joe" ran into this exact problem.
If it was me, I'm confident I'd overcome that hurdle, if it's possible.
Almost always, it's possible.

But I don't have a Mac either.
But I _love_ the brilliance of the idea, if that hurdle can be overcome, of
booting to Ubuntu to enable true cross-platform file-transfer inter
operability over USB.

Post by Aragorn
But even if it's writable, then I would still not advise using HFS+ as
the main filesystem for your Ubuntu system, because HFS+ is case-
retentive but not case-sensitive. You could however use a small HFS+
partition for sharing data with macOS € again, if it's writable to the
Linux kernel, which I don't know.

This is potentially useful workaround information for the user "joe" who is
running into these minor hurdles as we type.

I'm confident they can be overcome simply because I can't remember the last
time I failed on such a quest, as I almost always find the solution, with
your help.

Thanks.

[Paul]

Post by Aragorn
On Friday 21 September 2018 21:14, Arlen H. Holder conveyed the
following to alt.os.linux...

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Quick question about Ubuntu/MacOS dual boot basics.
I ask here and leave off the Apple folks since they just play silly games.
In your experience...
Q: Can the Mac dual boot to Ubuntu or at least boot off a bootable
DVD? A: ?

That should be possible, yes. For dual-boot installations, you should
look into something called Boot Camp, which ─ as I understand it ─ was
designed to allow Windows users to install Microsoft Windows on a Mac
alongside the native macOS. And if you can use it to install Microsoft
Windows on a Mac, then you most certainly can install GNU/Linux on it.
In fact, Linus Torvalds himself has or used to have a Mac that runs (or
ran) GNU/Linux, although that may still have been one of the PPC Macs,
from before Apple switched to Intel processors.
The PPC processor is (or was) either way supported by the upstream Linux
kernel. Of course, in that case you also needed a distro that was
compiled for PPC, and not all distros support an equally wide variety of
processor architectures.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Q: If yes, does Ubuntu recognize the native Mac file system?
A: ?

In read-only fashion, most certainly, yes, but I don't know whether
GNU/Linux can _write_ to HFS+. I seem to recall that it cannot, but
you'll have to put in the necessary legwork to discover that for
yourself as I don't personally own a Mac.
But even if it's writable, then I would still not advise using HFS+ as
the main filesystem for your Ubuntu system, because HFS+ is case-
retentive but not case-sensitive. You could however use a small HFS+
partition for sharing data with macOS ─ again, if it's writable to the
Linux kernel, which I don't know.

It's a Mac, so it's bound to have challenges.

http://refit.sourceforge.net/info/boot_process.html

Apple has at least three of their own file systems now.
They have HFS, and HFS+, but they've also added AFS
more recently. While GParted has support for HFS+
(from my Mac G4 box), when I attempted to change
a partition, the partition table got trashed. Rather
than being worried about merely writing to a partition,
I'd be more concerned about getting too adventurous with
GParted. I prepared in advance, and had a backup, so
"nobody got hurt".

Paul

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Paul
It's a Mac, so it's bound to have challenges.
http://refit.sourceforge.net/info/boot_process.html
Apple has at least three of their own file systems now.
They have HFS, and HFS+, but they've also added AFS
more recently. While GParted has support for HFS+
(from my Mac G4 box), when I attempted to change
a partition, the partition table got trashed. Rather
than being worried about merely writing to a partition,
I'd be more concerned about getting too adventurous with
GParted. I prepared in advance, and had a backup, so
"nobody got hurt".

Thanks for that research, Paul.

I agree that the Apple products are harder to cross platform interface, but
I always find a solution, if I can actually _test_ it myself.

In the case of the Mac, I can't test it, so I'm severely constrained, but
there has been some new information on the Mac groups which may help.

Here is an informative verbatim quote on the Mac groups from moments ago...
Message-ID: <***@news.eternal-september.org>
Ubuntu will NOT be able to read/write HFS+ file systems if hfsprogs
is not installed, and hfsprogs is not installed as a default.

Users wishing to read/write HFS+ from Ubuntu must follow the
instructions at
<https://askubuntu.com/questions/332315/how-to-read-and-write-hfs-journaled-external-hdd-in-ubuntu-without-access-to-os>

There is no native methods for Ubuntu to read/write APFS.
<https://askubuntu.com/questions/991695/is-it-possible-to-mount-apfs-apples-newest-file-system-in-ubuntu-17-10>

Paragon Software has an add-on extension which can do it.
<https://www.paragon-software.com/business/apfs-linux/>

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Aragorn
In read-only fashion, most certainly, yes, but I don't know whether
GNU/Linux can _write_ to HFS+.

Hi Aragorn and Paul,
Would you (and others) kindly look over this unfinished untested compilation
I created this morning which I cannot test (I don't have a Mac), but which
comes from reliable references you & Paul & Wolffan helpfully provided?

****************************************************************************
How to read & write to HFS+ partitions by booting to Ubuntu (on the Mac)
!!!WIP ... Untested! ... Preliminary - for review!!!

Please improve so that everyone benefits from every action by each of us.
****************************************************************************
============================================================================
Your choice (works both ways):
a. Journaling disabled
b. Journaling enabled
============================================================================
Read/Write access to a non-journaled HFS+ drive.

1. Plug in the external HFS+ non-journeled drive into Ubuntu.
2. Ubuntu mounts the HFS+ drive automatically as read-only.
$ mount -l
Your HFS+ device should show up as /dev/sdx
If the drive doesn't automatically mount, mount the HFS+ drive:
$ sudo mount -t hfsplus -o force,rw /dev/sdx# /media/mntpoint
3. Click the eject button in file explorer to unmount the drive.
4. Install hfsprogs.
$ sudo apt-get install hfsprogs
5. Optional: Check the drive.
$ sudo fsck.hfsplus /dev/sdXY
6. Click on the drive in the file explorer to remount the drive as r/w:
Note: To manually remount the HFS+ drive:
$ sudo mount -t hfsplus -o remount,force,rw /dev/sdx# /mount/point
============================================================================
Read/Write access to a journaled HFS+ drive.

1. Plug in the external HFS+ non-journeled drive into Ubuntu.
2. Ubuntu mounts the HFS+ drive automatically as read-only.
$ mount -l
Your HFS+ device should show up as /dev/sdx
If the drive doesn't automatically mount, mount the HFS+ drive:
$ sudo mount -t hfsplus -o force,rw /dev/sdx# /media/mntpoint
3. Click the eject button in file explorer to unmount the drive.
4. Install hfsprogs.
$ sudo apt-get install hfsprogs
5. Optional: Check the drive.
$ sudo fsck.hfsplus -f /dev/sdXY
6. Click on the drive in the file explorer to remount the drive as r/w:
Note: To manually remount the HFS+ drive:
$ sudo mount -t hfsplus -o remount,force,rw /dev/sdx# /mount/point
============================================================================
To read/write on the Mac users' home folder, simply match the User ID:

1. On OS/X, check your UID (typically the default is UID 501):
OS/X: System Preferences > your username > Advanced Options

2. Boot into Ubuntu & add a temp user of the same UID as found above:
$ sudo useradd -d /home/tempuser -m -s /bin/bash -G admin tempuser
$ sudo passwd tempuser
$ sudo usermod --uid 501 yourusername
$ sudo chown -R 501:yourusername /home/yourusername

You can now read & write to both your Mac and Linux user's home folder,
no matter which OS you're logged into.

3. Optionally, add the new user of UID 501 to the Ubuntu login screen:
By default, Ubuntu doesn't list users of UID less than 1000 on the
login screen, where this command changes that default value:

$ gksudo gedit /etc/login.defs
Simply change the value of UID_MIN from 1000 to 501
============================================================================
To turn off HFS+ journaling from the Mac

1. Boot into OS X and fire up the Disk Utility.
2. Click on your HFS partition, hold the Option key, and click File
3. A new option to Disable Journaling will come up in the menu.
4. When you reboot to Linux, it will mount the HFS+ drive r/w automatically
============================================================================
To turn off HFS+ journaling from within Ubuntu

1. Compile disable_journal.c to disable_journal.out
$ gcc -o disable_journal disable_journal.c
2. Run the program to disable journaling.
$ sudo ./disable_journal.out /dev/sdXX
where /dev/sdXX is the partition you wish to mount.
3. Then mount the HFS+ drive using the following:
$ sudo mount -t hfsplus -o rw,user /dev/sdXX /media/hfspart

--- cut here for disable_journal.c ---
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/mman.h>
#include <fcntl.h>
#include <byteswap.h>



int main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
int fd = open(argv[1], O_RDWR);
if(fd < 0) {
perror("open");
return -1;
}

unsigned char *buffer = (unsigned char *)mmap(NULL, 2048, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_SHARED, fd, 0);
if(buffer == (unsigned char*)0xffffffff) {
perror("mmap");
return -1;
}

if((buffer[1024] != 'H') && (buffer[1025] != '+')) {
fprintf(stderr, "%s: HFS+ signature not found -- aborting.\n", argv[0]);
return -1;
}

unsigned long attributes = *(unsigned long *)(&buffer[1028]);
attributes = bswap_32(attributes);
printf("attributes = 0x%8.8lx\n", attributes);

if(!(attributes & 0x00002000)) {
printf("kHFSVolumeJournaledBit not currently set in the volume attributes field.\n");
}

attributes &= 0xffffdfff;
attributes = bswap_32(attributes);
*(unsigned long *)(&buffer[1028]) = attributes;

buffer[1032] = '1';
buffer[1033] = '0';
buffer[1034] = '.';
buffer[1035] = '0';

buffer[1036] = 0;
buffer[1037] = 0;
buffer[1038] = 0;
buffer[1039] = 0;

printf("journal has been disabled.\n");
return 0;
}
--- cut here for disable_journal.c ---
============================================================================
For commercial solutions:
1. Paragon has an extension for full read/write access to NTFS & HFS+ volumes
<https://www.paragon-software.com/home/ntfs-linux-professional/>
NOTE: They have a freeware version available for non-commercial use.

2. Paragon has an add-on extension for full APFS (read-write access)
<https://www.paragon-software.com/business/apfs-linux/>
============================================================================
REFERENCES:
<https://superuser.com/questions/84446/how-to-mount-a-hfs-partition-in-ubuntu-as-read-write>
<https://superuser.com/questions/84446/how-to-mount-a-hfs-partition-in-ubuntu-as-read-write>
<https://jaysonlorenzen.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/linux-unable-to-write-to-non-journaled-hfsplus-drive/>
<https://askubuntu.com/questions/332315/how-to-read-and-write-hfs-journaled-external-hdd-in-ubuntu-without-access-to-os>
<https://lifehacker.com/5702815/the-complete-guide-to-sharing-your-data-across-multiple-operating-systems>
<https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1420673>
============================================================================

[Aragorn]

On Saturday 22 September 2018 18:35, Arlen H. Holder conveyed the
following to alt.os.linux...

Post by Arlen H. Holder

Post by Aragorn
In read-only fashion, most certainly, yes, but I don't know whether
GNU/Linux can _write_ to HFS+.

Hi Aragorn and Paul,
Would you (and others) kindly look over this unfinished untested
compilation I created this morning which I cannot test (I don't have a
Mac), but which comes from reliable references you & Paul & Wolffan
helpfully provided?
[...]
--- cut here for disable_journal.c ---
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/mman.h>
#include <fcntl.h>
#include <byteswap.h>
[...]

While the rest of your instructions seems okay at first glance, I'm
afraid I don't speak C, so I'm going to have to defer to someone who
does. :)

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Aragorn
While the rest of your instructions seems okay at first glance, I'm
afraid I don't speak C, so I'm going to have to defer to someone who
does. :)

Thanks for looking it over Aragorn, where I'm all about working together.
(It's sad we have to waste half a thread dealing with worthless trolls.)

As you noted, and as always, no one person knows everything, but, together,
we're all far more powerful than we are alone.

In this case, I can't compile either, nor do I have a Mac, but with your
help, and that of Paul, Mike Easter, and Wolffan, it seems like we have the
problem (ostensibly) resolved such that this seems to be our new-found
capabilities:
1. We can boot our original Mac or Windows desktop to Ubuntu 18.04
2. Then we can connect *any* iOS device on the planet for full r/w access
3. We can also connect any Android device for even better full r/w access
4. Likely we can connect any USB drive or camera also (as an aside)
5. With simultaneous full r/w access to the original desktop filesystem!

All without installing _anything_ non-native on any of the systems above,
with the exception of the easily installed open-source freeware hfsprogs
for writing to the journaled Mac HFS+ file system.

I hope others, who know far more than I do, will look over (and hopefully
test!) the compilation so that we can hone it for everyone to benefit in
the future in our tribal archives (where I set up the tinyurl myself, many
years ago):
http://tinyurl.com/alt-os-linux
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/0kdhyqga5FQ>

http://alt.os.linux.narkive.com
<http://alt.os.linux.narkive.com/ekHuTNWB/quick-cross-platform-question-on-ubuntu-macos-dual-boot-basics>

[Aragorn]

On Saturday 22 September 2018 19:34, Arlen H. Holder conveyed the
following to alt.os.linux...

Post by Arlen H. Holder

Post by Aragorn
While the rest of your instructions seems okay at first glance, I'm
afraid I don't speak C, so I'm going to have to defer to someone who
does. :)

Thanks for looking it over Aragorn, where I'm all about working
together. (It's sad we have to waste half a thread dealing with
worthless trolls.)

I generally try staying away from flame fests these days, and even when
it is I who is the target ─ in which case it's usually not about
GNU/Linux ─ I generally won't waste more than two posts explaining
myself.

Disagreements will always arise. Misunderstandings are a thing of the
human species, and especially with the limitations of language.
Language can be ambiguous, and well-intended hyperbole can often be
construed as literal, which I believe to have been the case here.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
As you noted, and as always, no one person knows everything, but,
together, we're all far more powerful than we are alone.

I firmly agree with that.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
In this case, I can't compile either, nor do I have a Mac, but with
your help, and that of Paul, Mike Easter, and Wolffan, it seems like
we have the problem (ostensibly) resolved such that this seems to be
1. We can boot our original Mac or Windows desktop to Ubuntu 18.04

Yes, we can.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
2. Then we can connect *any* iOS device on the planet for full r/w access

Yes, we can.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
3. We can also connect any Android device for even better full
r/w access

Yes, we can.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
4. Likely we can connect any USB drive or camera also (as an aside)

Yes, we can ─ provided that the camera in question doesn't require any
proprietary drivers.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
5. With simultaneous full r/w access to the original desktop
filesystem!

Yes, we can. Am I president of the United States of Acronyms now? :D

Post by Arlen H. Holder
All without installing _anything_ non-native on any of the systems
above, with the exception of the easily installed open-source freeware
hfsprogs for writing to the journaled Mac HFS+ file system.

One of the many beautiful things about Free & Open Source Software is
that there is such a huge variety of tools available. Many of those
tools are written by people who were simply trying to scratch their own
itch, and who then thought, "Oh well, why not let others have access to
this as well?", and who then publish their code on things like GitHub or
SourceForge.

And another beautiful thing is that this FLOSS code will then often be
of much higher quality than any existing proprietary code that does the
same thing. Take Samba as an example. A GNU/Linux or other UNIX
machine with the Samba server installed actually does a better job at
mimicking a Microsoft Windows server than Microsoft Windows itself. ;)

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Aragorn
I generally try staying away from flame fests these days, and even when
it is I who is the target € in which case it's usually not about
GNU/Linux € I generally won't waste more than two posts explaining
myself.

First, and foremost, Aragorn, thank you for always acting like an adult.
As you're aware, it's a thankless struggle to rein in the worthless trolls

As you noted, I explained that
a) I strive to add new value in every post, and,
b) I strategically & tactically confront trolls in threads I care about
which *add value* to our overall tribal knowledge.

The problem I found out when I explain my strategy is that the proven
value-less trolls who have no shred of decency left (e.g., Cybe R. Wizard,
Wolf K, Frank Slootweg, Wildman, Danny DeVito, & especially Rene
Lanontagne), literally feel that my confronting them on their trolling is a
"challenge" for them to "step up to".

They don't like themselves, nor what they post (which adds zero value).
But worse - they don't like their own posts proving they add zero value.
*Even worse, they feel they have the God-given _right_ to troll!*

Hence, time and again, they need to *prove* that they have every right to
shit on the potluck picnic that is Usenet... so, as you see in this very
thread, they proved that, yet again, their God-given right to troll.

Sigh.

While those trolls have no shred of decency, there are other common
value-less trolls who (thank God) still have a shred of decency left, such
as Dan Purgert & Rudy Wieser, for example, who still retain a modicum of
intelligence which enables them to comprehend the strategy of funneling
them into acting like adults and, as a result, to accede to human decency,
as adults.

But the likes of Cybe R. Wizard, and especially Rene Lamontagne, have lost
any shred of decency that they may have ever had (which they proved in this
very thread) - where they refuse to accede to any overt attempt to funnel
them into acting like adults.

Hence, I will follow your advice and ignore the trolls (who usually pollute
9/10ths of every thread), since the morons (most likely socks given the
header information and overall pattern of prior posting) are coming out in
force trying to assert their "freedom of the seas" God-given right to troll
any thread they please.

Post by Aragorn
Disagreements will always arise.

No. This isn't about disagreement.
Seriously.

Adults handle disagreement on facts and positions easily.
Adults are funny that way.

I'm of average intelligence so I comprehend _everything_ written in this
thread, where, I don't see any disagreement whatsoever.

Do you?

If so...where do you see adult disagreement on the technical topic at hand,
which is clearly cross-platform Ubuntu/Mac/iOS connectivity issues?

Post by Aragorn
Misunderstandings are a thing of the
human species, and especially with the limitations of language.

I disagree that this is happening in this thread.
While your statement is a truism, in this thread, I don't see any technical
disagreement whatsoever with the adults who are participating:

These are the only 4 adults on this thread to date:
a. You, Aragorn (who advanced our knowledge as adults tend to do)
b. Me, currently Arlen Holder (I switch headers over time for privacy)
c. Paul (who, I must applaud, is a model of restraint & compassion)
d. Mike Easter (who, like Paul, advanced our knowledge, as adults do)

The negative-value children on this thread outnumber us 6 to 4:
a. *Rene Lamontagne* (infamous on Windows groups as a worthless troll)
b. *Cybe R. Wizard* (just as infamous as a troll on the linux groups)
c. Dan Purgert (who, I think, retained some of his decency & restraint)
d. Rudy Wieser (who also, I think, "can" retain a modicum of adult decency)
e. Danny DeVito (who generally doesn't come up as a common troll)
f. Wildman (who generally doesn't strike me as a worthless troll)

I don't have to prove these 6 are trolls, as their own posts prove it.

Of those 6, I've dealt with the first 4 many times, so I know them well.
The first 2 prove worthless children, stunted in their mental capacity.
The next 2 are decent guys - but they still shit on the table nonetheless.
The last 2 I don't really know well enough to characterize yet.

NOTE: It's not unlikely that some trolls above are socks of others.

Post by Aragorn
Language can be ambiguous, and well-intended hyperbole can often be
construed as literal, which I believe to have been the case here.

In this case, nobody is disagreeing with the language, so, while your trism
is a platitude, pseudo meaningful statements don't explain the actual
dynamic.

What's happening here is that there are two classes of trolls (in this
thread) where the second class (Dan and Rudy, both of whom I know well),
seem to have retained enough adult decency to stop trolling when called out
on it, while the first class (e.g., Rene Lamontagne and Cybe R. Wizard,
both of whom I know all too well) are literally affronted that their "right
to troll" was being challenged.

Post by Aragorn

Post by Arlen H. Holder
As you noted, and as always, no one person knows everything, but,
together, we're all far more powerful than we are alone.

I firmly agree with that.

Thank you for understanding the *immense* strength that we adults,
together, have.

For example, I can ask a basic question based lack of real-world
Mac-to-Ubuntu 'experience', and get an answer from, in this case, Mike
Easter, who didn't actually have the real-world Mac-to-Unix experience I
was seeking, but who gave me a great pointer.

Later, you, and Paul and Wolffran (on the Mac) group provided more
pointers, which I read, comprehended (for the most part), and *compiled*
into a nascent tutorial, combining elements from more than a half-dozen
separate references.

In the past, such things have often "snowballed" (as did the initial VPN
discussion with Marek, if you remember those), into an entire working
system, where, together, the adults on this newsgroup move our tribal
knowledge forward, in increasingly monumental steps.

At the moment, for example, we have a proposed system which:
a. Uses _any_ consumer desktop OS on the planet (Mac, Linux, Windows)
b. Mounts r/w any consumer mobile device on the planet (iOS, Android)

This is a *big deal*.
In fact, it's a classic holy grail of cross-platform interoperabillity.

And we did it in just days with only the minds & efforts of five adults!
1. Mike Easter
2. Paul
3. Wolffan
4. You
5. Me

The rest simply polluted the conversation with their worthless drivel.

Post by Aragorn

Post by Arlen H. Holder
1. We can boot our original Mac or Windows desktop to Ubuntu 18.04

Yes, we can.

As can be expected, the Apple babies are all shitting on the picnic table,
saying that the Ubuntu GUI is "terrible", so I need to ask one question
which I'm confused about, but which "seems possible".

Do you think we could boot to the Mac (so we use the Mac GUI) and access
the Linux partition of a dual boot Mac/Ubuntu desktop?

HINT: I know my Windows/Ubuntu dual boot only works in one direction, which
is that Ubuntu easily mounts Windows filesystem, but Windows does not mount
the Ubuntu filesystem.

Does anyone here know, offhand, if the Mac can mount the Ubuntu filesystem?

[Aragorn]

On Sunday 23 September 2018 15:22, Arlen H. Holder conveyed the
following to alt.os.linux...

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Do you think we could boot to the Mac (so we use the Mac GUI) and
access the Linux partition of a dual boot Mac/Ubuntu desktop?

I cannot say this for certain, but with the caveat that the answer may
be more convoluted than you might suspect.

The thing is that GNU/Linux supports multiple filesystem types as
"native", by which I mean that they are filesystem types upon which you
can install (and from which you can run) a GNU/Linux system without any
problems at all.

These are the filesystem types that are all supported by the upstream
Linux kernel as suitable for installing a GNU/Linux system on:

- ext2 (deprecated, but still functional)
- ext3
- ext4
- btrfs
- reiserfs (i.e. version 3 ─ reiser4 is not natively supported)
- XFS
- JFS
- F2FS

Now, to the best of my knowledge, Ubuntu does allow one to choose what
partitioning layout and what filesystems to use during installation, but
I don't know what the default filesystem choice would be if the user
doesn't specify anything consciously. I suspect that it would be ext4,
but it could just as easily be btrfs these days.

btrfs is essentially a GPL-licensed rewrite of the ZFS filesystem that
is native to Solaris, OpenIndiana and FreeBSD. Like ZFS, btrfs is a
combined filesystem and volume manager. It allows one to create dynamic
subvolumes within a single larger volume, and it supports copy-on-write
and native RAID functionality.

What I can tell you is that there is a driver for Microsoft Windows ─
not included in the Windows system itself natively, but freely
downloadable from the internet nevertheless ─ for ext2/3/4. What I do
NOT know is whether macOS has a similar driver available, nor what other
filesystems it supports besides the Apple-specific filesystems and
perhaps FAT/FAT32/exFAT.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
HINT: I know my Windows/Ubuntu dual boot only works in one direction,
which is that Ubuntu easily mounts Windows filesystem, but Windows
does not mount the Ubuntu filesystem.

See above; there is a Windows driver available for mounting ext4, but
it's not included by default in Microsoft Windows.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Does anyone here know, offhand, if the Mac can mount the Ubuntu filesystem?

I suspect not, but there may be an external macOS driver available that
does this ─ or at least, on account of ext4.

What's strange though is that industry-standard POSIX filesystems like
XFS and JFS are not natively supported in macOS.

ext4 is specific to the Linux kernel, but XFS and JFS are industry
standards in the UNIX world, and macOS is being marketed as a certified
UNIX. So one would expect macOS to support those filesystems, but it
doesn't.

Odd...

[Dan Purgert]

Post by Aragorn
On Sunday 23 September 2018 15:22, Arlen H. Holder conveyed the
following to alt.os.linux...

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Do you think we could boot to the Mac (so we use the Mac GUI) and
access the Linux partition of a dual boot Mac/Ubuntu desktop?

[...]
These are the filesystem types that are all supported by the upstream
- ext2 (deprecated, but still functional)
- ext3
- ext4
- btrfs
- reiserfs (i.e. version 3 ─ reiser4 is not natively supported)
- XFS
- JFS
- F2FS
Now, to the best of my knowledge, Ubuntu does allow one to choose what
partitioning layout and what filesystems to use during installation, but
I don't know what the default filesystem choice would be if the user
doesn't specify anything consciously. I suspect that it would be ext4,
but it could just as easily be btrfs these days.

LTS versions 14.04, 16.04, and 18.04 have all defaulted to ext4. I
imagine the non-lts versions do the same, but I don't ever use them.
btrfs is gaining popularity, but as of yet hasn't taken over as "the
default".

Post by Aragorn
[...] What I DO NOT know is whether macOS has a similar driver
available, nor what other filesystems it supports besides the
Apple-specific filesystems and perhaps FAT/FAT32/exFAT..

Quick google came up with this article[1] from 2014. Given it's the
first hit for "macos filesystem support"; I imagine it's still an
accurate represenation of the state of things.

Short version is -> native support is HFS+, FAT32, or exFAT (all rw); or
ro for NTFS. You can get additional drivers for NTFS (ntfs-3g), ext2/3,
or sshfs.

I would imagine that in the intervening time, the ext2/3 driver has also
added support for ext4.



[1]https://www.macworld.com/article/2855038/how-to-mount-and-manage-non-native-file-systems-in-os-x-with-fuse.html

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Aragorn
I cannot say this for certain, but with the caveat that the answer may
be more convoluted than you might suspect.

Thanks for responding to the key sentence that would advance our knowledge!

Post by Aragorn
The thing is that GNU/Linux supports multiple filesystem types as
"native", by which I mean that they are filesystem types upon which you
can install (and from which you can run) a GNU/Linux system without any
problems at all.

Good point on the various filesystems.

I was remiss in not remarking that I am only asking about default
filesystems, at first, where only if the native OS's default filesystem
*needs* to be changed, do any of the other filesystems begin to matter.

Hence, only two filesystems initially matter for the original question:
a. The Mac default file system (apparently HFS+ with journaling?)
b. The Ubuntu default file system (apparently ext4?)

Post by Aragorn
These are the filesystem types that are all supported by the upstream
- ext2 (deprecated, but still functional)
- ext3
- ext4
- btrfs
- reiserfs (i.e. version 3 € reiser4 is not natively supported)
- XFS
- JFS
- F2FS
Now, to the best of my knowledge, Ubuntu does allow one to choose what
partitioning layout and what filesystems to use during installation, but
I don't know what the default filesystem choice would be if the user
doesn't specify anything consciously. I suspect that it would be ext4,
but it could just as easily be btrfs these days.

Well, whatever the *default* is, is what the question is about. :)

That's the logical approach, since I'm trying to come up with a general
approach, where the first step of any general approach is normally to
assume default values.

Post by Aragorn
btrfs is essentially a GPL-licensed rewrite of the ZFS filesystem that
is native to Solaris, OpenIndiana and FreeBSD. Like ZFS, btrfs is a
combined filesystem and volume manager. It allows one to create dynamic
subvolumes within a single larger volume, and it supports copy-on-write
and native RAID functionality.

If btrfs is not the default filesystem for Ubuntu 18.04, then it won't
matter for this question, but it's good to know nonetheless.

Post by Aragorn
What I can tell you is that there is a driver for Microsoft Windows €
not included in the Windows system itself natively, but freely
downloadable from the internet nevertheless € for ext2/3/4.

Ooooooh... that's good to know!
<https://www.howtogeek.com/112888/3-ways-to-access-your-linux-partitions-from-windows/>

Very good to know.
<http://www.ext2fsd.com/>

Thanks. (Note to self: I should explore that separately.)
<https://www.techgainer.com/how-to-mount-and-access-linux-partitions-ext4ext3ext2-in-windows-explorer-easily/>

What that means is that it's possible to *boot to Windows* and obtain the
partial cross-platform functionality that booting to Ubuntu gives us.
a. It would give us simultaneous access between Windows & Android & Linux
b. But it would still not give us read/write access to iOS files

Post by Aragorn
What I do
NOT know is whether macOS has a similar driver available, nor what other
filesystems it supports besides the Apple-specific filesystems and
perhaps FAT/FAT32/exFAT.

Yesterday morning, when I first read the referenced articles, I wasn't
looking for the Mac to read the Ubuntu default file system; it was just
when the Mac users complained that they thought the Ubuntu GUI horrid that
the amelioration solution of the Mac reading Linux filesystems came to
mind.

I'm all about solving users' objections, if/when they're real.

Post by Aragorn
See above; there is a Windows driver available for mounting ext4, but
it's not included by default in Microsoft Windows.

Thanks for that pointer which I wasn't aware of until you suggested it.
It seems there is a _lot_ of information about that, so it's not a problem.
<https://thelinuxcode.com/mount-linux-partition-ext4-ext3-ext2-windows-10-8-7/>

The main reason this idea is not all that useful here, is that booting to
Windows doesn't give the access to iOS that booting to Ubuntu does.

But it does give access to everything else (other than HFS+ and iOS), so
it's useful for most people who don't have Apple devices to deal with.
<https://superuser.com/questions/37512/how-to-read-ext4-partitions-on-windows>

Post by Aragorn

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Does anyone here know, offhand, if the Mac can mount the Ubuntu filesystem?

I suspect not, but there may be an external macOS driver available that
does this € or at least, on account of ext4.

Googling, apparently commercial solutions exist:
<https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/29842/how-can-i-mount-an-ext4-file-system-on-os-x>
<https://www.paragon-software.com/home/extfs-mac/>

But apparently, at least upon initial inspection, some say it's not FOSS:
<https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-general-1/mac-driver-for-the-ext4-file-format-787407/>

But, maybe it is, since the OSXFuse product is FOSS and said to work fine:
<http://osxdaily.com/2014/03/20/mount-ext-linux-file-system-mac/>

The actual Mac OS version may or may not be an issue though:
<https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/210198/mount-ext4-on-el-capitan>

Post by Aragorn
ext4 is specific to the Linux kernel, but XFS and JFS are industry
standards in the UNIX world, and macOS is being marketed as a certified
UNIX. So one would expect macOS to support those filesystems, but it
doesn't.

It "seems", upon initial inspection, that a FOSS solution "probably" exists
such that the MacOS likely "can" read the default Ubuntu file system.

Even so, and oddly so, the Mac still can't read iOS as well as Ubuntu does
(AFAIK), so, it's only a partial solution to ameliorate those who claim (on
the Mac groups) that "the Ubuntu GUI is terrible".

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Arlen H. Holder
What that means is that it's possible to *boot to Windows* and obtain the
partial cross-platform functionality that booting to Ubuntu gives us.
a. It would give us simultaneous access between Windows & Android & Linux
b. But it would still not give us read/write access to iOS files

Hi Aragorn,
Just as an FYI to add to the tribal knowledge, I simultaneously installed
all three of those Windows Linux filesystem readers/writers (yes, I know,
that might not be a good idea to have all 3 running simultaneously).

1. <https://sourceforge.net/projects/ext2read/files/latest/download>
2. <https://sourceforge.net/projects/ext2fsd/files/latest/download>
3. <https://www.diskinternals.com/download/Linux_Reader.exe>

*ext2read*
The first is just an executable, while the latter two are installers.
That first executable has to be run as Administrator; the rest don't.
Even so, for whatever reason, I couldn't find my Linux home files.

*ext2fsd*
This automatically creates a drive letter for your Linux filesystem.
The GUI was kind of miserable (e.g., it wouldn't even resize properly).
I'm sure it can do the stated task, but it has a steep learning curve.

*LinuxReader*
I kind of like the GUI of the last one the best, at least upon 1st use.
It presents your Linux and Windows disks in a familiar "My Computer" style.
When you want to copy a file from Linux to Windows, you just hit "Save".

Since the price of freeware is the effort it takes to find the best ones,
my quick test clearly tells me to spend time on the "LinuxReader" and to
ditch the other two (unless there's a reason I learn later to do
otherwise).

Thanks for letting me know these three programs exist, as you save me
umpteen reboots, just to access files that are on the Linux partitions!

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Arlen H. Holder
*ext2read*
The first is just an executable, while the latter two are installers.
That first executable has to be run as Administrator; the rest don't.
Even so, for whatever reason, I couldn't find my Linux home files.

Here's a graphic which shows that ext2read can easily see the "root"
directories of the Linux system, but not anyhing inside the home directory,
of which there are plenty of files that ext2read doesn't seem to see.
<Loading Image...>

Luckily, LinuxReader easily sees inside the home directory, by default.

I'm not sure if there is some magical setting to ext2read that allows it to
see inside the home directories (maybe it's a UID permission issue?).

Dunno - but LinuxReader is working fine, by default.

[Aragorn]

On Monday 24 September 2018 05:15, Arlen H. Holder conveyed the
following to alt.os.linux...

Post by Arlen H. Holder

Post by Arlen H. Holder
*ext2read*
The first is just an executable, while the latter two are installers.
That first executable has to be run as Administrator; the rest don't.
Even so, for whatever reason, I couldn't find my Linux home files.

Here's a graphic which shows that ext2read can easily see the "root"
directories of the Linux system, but not anyhing inside the home
directory, of which there are plenty of files that ext2read doesn't
seem to see.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8343685sda5.jpg>
Luckily, LinuxReader easily sees inside the home directory, by
default.
I'm not sure if there is some magical setting to ext2read that allows
it to see inside the home directories (maybe it's a UID permission
issue?).

I'm guessing that it _may_ be due to /home being a mountpoint for
another filesystem. In that case, the ext2read tool might have a
problem knowing what filesystem to mount at /home, and with nothing
mounted there, /home would indeed appear to be empty.

Another option _may_ be that the ext2read tool cannot handle dot files
properly, although that seems odd to me, given that even the NTFS
filesystem used natively in Microsoft Windows supports dot files ─ but
FAT did not, of course.

Mind you, the above is just conjecture on my part, as I don't do
Microsoft Windows, and therefore I have no way of testing these Windows-
specific tools. Setting up a virtual machine with Microsoft Windows is
also not an option, as I am working from a refurbished computer with
only 3.3 GiB of RAM and a fairly slow Athlon64 dual-core processor.

[Paul]

Post by Aragorn
Mind you, the above is just conjecture on my part, as I don't do
Microsoft Windows, and therefore I have no way of testing these Windows-
specific tools. Setting up a virtual machine with Microsoft Windows is
also not an option, as I am working from a refurbished computer with
only 3.3 GiB of RAM and a fairly slow Athlon64 dual-core processor.

You don't need a lot of RAM to run it. I could
probably run a half dozen of these. The machine in
this picture is like yours and reports "3.2GB free".
The machine I'm typing on, doesn't make OSes
this bad all that usable. It took a long time
to get this picture (get machine to settle down).

Loading Image...

If I run the Guest on my other machine, it's got
the resources to make the VM usable (even though
the VM is a pig).

Loading Image...

This is the Guest using Linux Hosting. The /tmp
is TMPFS and big enough to hold the .vhd file
for this test.

Loading Image...

Paul

[Dan Purgert]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Post by Aragorn
On Monday 24 September 2018 05:15, Arlen H. Holder conveyed the
following to alt.os.linux...

Post by Arlen H. Holder

Post by Arlen H. Holder
*ext2read*
The first is just an executable, while the latter two are installers.
That first executable has to be run as Administrator; the rest don't.
Even so, for whatever reason, I couldn't find my Linux home files.

Here's a graphic which shows that ext2read can easily see the "root"
directories of the Linux system, but not anyhing inside the home
directory, of which there are plenty of files that ext2read doesn't
seem to see.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8343685sda5.jpg>
Luckily, LinuxReader easily sees inside the home directory, by default.
I'm not sure if there is some magical setting to ext2read that allows
it to see inside the home directories (maybe it's a UID permission
issue?).

I'm guessing that it _may_ be due to /home being a mountpoint for
another filesystem. In that case, the ext2read tool might have a
problem knowing what filesystem to mount at /home, and with nothing
mounted there, /home would indeed appear to be empty.

Assuming it is a mountpoint for another partition / filesystem, it is
also possible that it is not ext2/3/4. However, given we know nothing
of the filesystem(s) in question; all we have is conjecture.


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[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Dan Purgert
Assuming it is a mountpoint for another partition / filesystem, it is
also possible that it is not ext2/3/4. However, given we know nothing
of the filesystem(s) in question; all we have is conjecture.

Hi Dan Purgert,
Paul mentioned on the Windows groups that it might be something like that,
or encryption, where NOTHING on my Ubuntu 18.04 is "not default".

That is, EVERYTHING is default as the Linux is there as a dual boot mostly
so that I can easily interface with all mobile devices and so that I can
run things that Windows can't easily do (grep, sed, sort, etc.) ... (at
least more easily than is setting up cygwin, bash shell, GNU coreutils,
etc., on Windows).

Here is the user's HOME directory showing up in *LinuxReader* on Windows:
<Loading Image...>

I'm sure someone with experience using *ext2read* would know why it won't
show up anything inside the users' home directory - but - it's not a big
deal (unless I need 'write' permission - which - I think - LinuxReader
doesn't provide).

I'm extremely familiar with freeware, where you learn what you need to
learn, so, right now, I don't need write permission from Windows in the
Linux hierarchy, so the LinuxReader is fine for copying.

NOTE: You use the "save" button to "copy", as shown in the screenshot.

[Dan Purgert]

Post by Arlen H. Holder

Post by Dan Purgert
Assuming it is a mountpoint for another partition / filesystem, it is
also possible that it is not ext2/3/4. However, given we know nothing
of the filesystem(s) in question; all we have is conjecture.

Hi Dan Purgert,

You can just use my given name, y'know ...

Post by Arlen H. Holder
[...]
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8264301linuxreader.jpg>

That would be indicative that /home is the same partition as /, so more
likely that it's perhaps encryption rather than inability to find the
partition or read the filesystem (although one would imagine that an
encrypted $HOME would not be readable in either case -- or at least
require some additional "do xyz to decrypt").

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Dan Purgert
You can just use my given name, y'know ...

Nothing I do is by accident, as I'm an old hand at Usenet.

There's a strategic and tactical reason when I use the full name, but it's
mostly when I'm funneling the people who have decency which means they
"can" be funneled ... so, I'll drop that tactic unless I need it again for
adult-funneling purposes.

Post by Dan Purgert
That would be indicative that /home is the same partition as /, so more
likely that it's perhaps encryption rather than inability to find the
partition or read the filesystem (although one would imagine that an
encrypted $HOME would not be readable in either case -- or at least
require some additional "do xyz to decrypt").

Yeah, but ... if it was encrypted, I would know it, where ... rest assured,
I've been burned like you can't believe with that damn encryption in the
past.

As an aside that I'd rather not belabor, on CentOS, I foolishly acceded to
the request to "enable encryption", which, after a good six months of use,
corrupted itself, and rendered my entire home directory unusable to all but
the NSA (and maybe not even them).

As a result of that torture, I _hate_ encryption on Linux. Hate it. Despise
it. Deplore it. etc. It's clearly flaky (or at least it was ... this was
around 2010 days, as I recall). I'm sure I could dig up my threads from
those days, where I simply want to cry just thinking about the grief that
damn flaky encryption caused me.

Hence, rest assured, unless it encrypts itself, I'm never touching Linux
encryption ever again.

Back to our story, I found two more potential solutions for the tribal
archives to benefit, which are:
*Ext4Explore*
<https://sourceforge.net/projects/ext4explore/files/latest/download

And, surprisingly (albeit, quixotically), someone suggested that 7Zip could
access the Linux disks (which I tried, & failed at, at least initially):
<Loading Image...>

For commercial solutions, it seems Paragon is in this business too:
<https://www.paragon-software.com/business/extfs-for-windows/>

As always, for others to benefit, here is a screenshot of a quick test
using *ext2fsd*, which I would characterize as having a somewhat
"non-intuitive" user interface.
<Loading Image...>

However, with ext2fsd, a lot may depend on the choices upon installation,
where I was presented with these defaults:
[x] Make Ext2Fsd automatically started when system boots [sic]
[x] Enable write support for Ext2 partitions
...[x] Enable force writing support on Ext3 partitions

By way of contrast, the user interface to *ext2read* was fine, but the
users' home directories showed up empty (for some strange reason):
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8343685sda5.jpg>

Meanwhile, the user interface to *LinuxReader* was the most intuitive (upon
first inspection anyway) and the users' home directories were visible:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8264301linuxreader.jpg>

The "problem" with LinuxReader might be that it's apparently read only.

As you're all well aware, the expense of freeware is almost all in the
choosing of the best ones, so my "added value" to the team is simply those
initial insights - where I ask for more insight from experienced users.

[Jasen Betts]

Post by Arlen H. Holder

Post by Dan Purgert
You can just use my given name, y'know ...

Nothing I do is by accident, as I'm an old hand at Usenet.

What name were you using before the twelfth of June? If you were
recently married/divorced congratulations!

Post by Arlen H. Holder
There's a strategic and tactical reason when I use the full name, but it's
mostly when I'm funneling the people who have decency which means they
"can" be funneled ... so, I'll drop that tactic unless I need it again for
adult-funneling purposes.

"Funelling" what do you mean by that?

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 13:22:04 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Arlen H. Holder
But the likes of Cybe R. Wizard, and especially Rene Lamontagne, have
lost any shred of decency that they may have ever had (which they
proved in this very thread) - where they refuse to accede to any
overt attempt to funnel them into acting like adults.

Do you really consider one calling you out for obvious BS to be
childish? Supply those ten thousand tutorials you claim to have
written. Let's see that example of your own adulthood.

What's childish is to make such a statement without expecting someone
to call you on it.

C'mon, pony up with that (at least) list, although I'd prefer pointers
to some real tutorials (about, oh, I don't know, maybe 10,000).

Cybe R. Wizard

[Dan Purgert]

Post by Cybe R. Wizard
On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 13:22:04 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Arlen H. Holder
But the likes of Cybe R. Wizard, and especially Rene Lamontagne, have
lost any shred of decency that they may have ever had (which they
proved in this very thread) - where they refuse to accede to any
overt attempt to funnel them into acting like adults.

Do you really consider one calling you out for obvious BS to be
childish? Supply those ten thousand tutorials you claim to have
written. Let's see that example of your own adulthood.

Perhaps he meant he wanted us to killfile him? At the very least, others
who've already binned him would stop seeing us take the bait.

[Dan Purgert]

Post by Aragorn
On Saturday 22 September 2018 18:35, Arlen H. Holder conveyed the
following to alt.os.linux...

Post by Arlen H. Holder

Post by Aragorn
In read-only fashion, most certainly, yes, but I don't know whether
GNU/Linux can _write_ to HFS+.

Hi Aragorn and Paul,
Would you (and others) kindly look over this unfinished untested
compilation I created this morning which I cannot test (I don't have a
Mac), but which comes from reliable references you & Paul & Wolffan
helpfully provided?
[...]
--- cut here for disable_journal.c ---
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/mman.h>
#include <fcntl.h>
#include <byteswap.h>
[...]

While the rest of your instructions seems okay at first glance, I'm
afraid I don't speak C, so I'm going to have to defer to someone who
does. :)

The C appears to disabling the HFS+ journaling fratures. However, I
can't confirm it won't be potentially damaging to the data contained on
said HFS-formatted partition.

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Dan Purgert
The C appears to disabling the HFS+ journaling fratures. However, I
can't confirm it won't be potentially damaging to the data contained on
said HFS-formatted partition.

Everyone brings this FUD up, where there are a bunch of super obvious
common workaround responses, but where I'd like more data about each
workaround before I give any as actual advice.

Let's look at the workarounds, factually, and as adults and not just kids
afraid of the imaginary monster in the closet.

1. Most of what I read said you don't have to disable journaling, so,
that's the simplest solution for those who are afraid of the monster in the
closet.

2. Even if you do disable journaling, I didn't see _any_ reports of
corruption, and, even if there was corruption, we presented fsck options to
fix it.

3. If people are really afraid of the monster in the closet, and if they
still wish to disable journaling, there's nothing stopping them from
creating a partition first, and copying data to that partition as a
failsafe and working only on the copies.

4. If they're still afraid of the monster in the closet, they can close the
closet door after getting their toys out of the closet, in that they can
always re-enable journaling after making their copy (it's just a switch).

5. I'm sure there are other things people can do besides all that, ending
with the switch to turn journaling back on if people are so inclined.

Speaking of the switch, I saw some indication that Apple figured out that
people were doing this, and in the _latests_ releases, Apple _removed_ the
switch to disable journaling on the Mac.

Does anyone here have a Mac who can confirm or deny whether the journaling
switch is still easily available on the Mac OS?

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 20:19:22 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Arlen H. Holder
I didn't see _any_ reports of
corruption, and, even if there was corruption, we presented fsck
options to fix it.

"...there wasn't any, but if there was there were options to fix..."

So which is it? Either there weren't any or there were with options.

I don't think anyone is ready to believe you here.

Cybe R. Wizard

[Aragorn]

On Sunday 23 September 2018 04:20, Cybe R. Wizard conveyed the following
to alt.os.linux...

Post by Cybe R. Wizard
On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 20:19:22 -0000 (UTC)

I didn't see _any_ reports of corruption, and, even if there was
corruption, we presented fsck options to fix it.

"...there wasn't any, but if there was there were options to fix..."
So which is it? Either there weren't any or there were with options.

I'm afraid you're misreading him, Brother Wizard. Just because there
isn't any corruption doesn't mean that there wouldn't be any options to
fix corruption, since those options also have to be available for
corruption caused by other things, such as an unclean shutdown.

The ability to repair filesystem corruption is generic to any advanced
operating system ─ macOS is after all based upon a modified FreeBSD ─
and isn't specific to filesystem corruption occurring as a result of
disabling the journal.

[Dan Purgert]

Post by Arlen H. Holder

Post by Dan Purgert
The C appears to disabling the HFS+ journaling fratures. However, I
can't confirm it won't be potentially damaging to the data contained on
said HFS-formatted partition.

Everyone brings this FUD up, where there are a bunch of super obvious
common workaround responses, but where I'd like more data about each
workaround before I give any as actual advice.

What "FUD"? That I personally am /uncertain/ of the code's ability to
safely disable the journaling?

Hmm, it's almost like you want me to be onmiscient, and guarantee that
someone else's code will work without fail 100% of the time.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Let's look at the workarounds, factually, and as adults and not just kids
afraid of the imaginary monster in the closet.
1. Most of what I read said you don't have to disable journaling, so,
that's the simplest solution for those who are afraid of the monster in the
closet.

which has *zero* to do with the comment (you removed) stating that the
person (Aragorn?) couldn't tell you anything about that C program.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
2. Even if you do disable journaling, I didn't see _any_ reports of
corruption, and, even if there was corruption, we presented fsck options to
fix it.

Good for you.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
3. If people are really afraid of the monster in the closet, and if they
still wish to disable journaling, there's nothing stopping them from
creating a partition first, and copying data to that partition as a
failsafe and working only on the copies.

That's not how journaling works at all. A filesystem journal is a
(temporary) "scratch list" of actions that are pending completion on the
partition (copies, and locations of the journals depend on filesystem).
Theres no possibility to "work on copies", since the secondary
filesystem has different (or no) journals.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
4. If they're still afraid of the monster in the closet, they can close the
closet door after getting their toys out of the closet, in that they can
always re-enable journaling after making their copy (it's just a switch).

Again, thats not how journaling works. Say you have a notebook of
everything you need to do today. Now, burn it.

Sure, you can start over with a new notebook, but can you guarantee that
you didn't forget something from the now-destroyed one?

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Dan Purgert
What "FUD"?

Hi Dan,

Everything you post just wastes everyone's time, since it's clear all you
wish to do is troll, and sow FUD after you've been called out on trolling.

I first need to explain to you that I first learned the term "Sowing FUD"
in undergraduate business ethics classes, as being a classic marketing
ploy, which is *strategic in intent*, cleverly devised, orchestrated, and
rolled out by marketing, to psychologically induce an unaware consumer to
unwittingly do exactly what marketing wants them to do, by sowing
unnecessary and *completely unwarranted Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt*.

If the fear, uncertainty and doubt are actually real, then it's not "sowing
FUD". It's simply facts.

Adults use amelioration techniques which I explained to you, in detail.
Adults are funny that way, in how they deal with _actual_ facts.

Dan Purgert - Please read my initial response to you again, as neither you
nor the other common troll seems to have comprehended that my response was
intended to make you think like an adult thinks, which is why I brought up
the analogy of the monster in the closet, which is unwarranted fear,
uncertainty, and doubt for children.

Aragorn proved he has the comprehensive mind of an adult.

I need you to *comprehend* the following three (obvious) statements:
- The fear should to be real (i.e., based on actual experience and facts)
- The uncertainty should be real (i.e., based on actual experience & facts)
- The doubt should be real (i.e., based on actual experience & facts)

HINT: There's a reason I brought up the "monster in the closet" analogy.

It's not only a classic marketing move to "Sow FUD", but it's also a
classic childish tactic of people who don't like new ideas to 'Sow FUD'.

My response to you was clear - and it was based on an adult comprehension
of the problem set.

Read my response again, please, Dan Purgert, as my response is the type of
response an _adult_ provides to anyone who seems to claim (as you seem to
have intimated) that they're intensely fearful that the monster in the
closet will eat their toys while they sleep.

If you're _that_ afraid of the monster in the closet scenario, how do you
ever get into an airplane, or car, or elevator for heaven's sake?

HINT: Airplanes blow up, cars crash, & elevator doors crush people.

Post by Dan Purgert
That I personally am /uncertain/ of the code's ability to
safely disable the journaling?

There's a reason I brought up the "monster in the closet" analogy, as every
child is afraid of the dark too.

HINT: Did I mention that airplanes crash? If not, I mention it now.

Post by Dan Purgert
Hmm, it's almost like you want me to be onmiscient, and guarantee that
someone else's code will work without fail 100% of the time.

There's a reason I brought up the "monster in the closet" analogy, as every
child is afraid of the dark too.

HINT: Did I mention that cars blow up? If not, I mention it now.

Post by Dan Purgert
which has *zero* to do with the comment (you removed)

First off, Dan Purgert, I know you trolls all too well.
You _hate_ when I don't play your silly games.
Hence, you hate when I use normal appropriate Usenet quoting etiquette.

HINT: <http://www.html-faq.com/etiquette/?quoting?>

Post by Dan Purgert
stating that the
person (Aragorn?) couldn't tell you anything about that C program.

Dan Purgert,
I think you maintain a shred of decency left, since you're simply trying to
sow FUD instead of your normal trolling.

However, you're not advancing our *adult value* by complaining incessantly
about what may very well be an imaginary monster in the closet.

If you can do the job with journaling, then where's your fear?

Even with journaling turned off permanently, I proposed multiple *super
obvious* ameliorations to the fact that a Mac, sans journaling, could
corrupt the system even without the presence of Linux for God's sake
(Aragorn understood that, why can't you?).

And, I proposed additional multiple methods where journaling doesn't even
have to be turned off permanently, nor for the main partition.

That you _persist_ in attempting to sow FUD, even after being provided with
the classic super obvious ameliorations, simply indicates, to me, that all
you wish to do, Dan Purgert, after being caught trolling, is to now sow
FUD.

If you have a warranted fear that is not ameliorated, then let us know.
HINT: Planes do crash, cars do explode, and elevators do fall.

Simple related question for you, Dan Purgert:
Q: What do adults do to ameliorate those admittedly fearful situations?

[Dan Purgert]

Post by Arlen H. Holder

Post by Dan Purgert
What "FUD"?

Hi Dan,
Everything you post just wastes everyone's time [...]

In your opinion.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
I first need to explain to you that I first learned the term "Sowing
FUD" [...]

No, you don't.

The fact of the matter is, in MID po5sui$6le$***@dont-email.me, Aragorn
indicated that he needed someone else to speak to the C program you
posted in MID po5r0v$e7e$***@news.mixmin.net. I reviewed the code and
came to the conclusion that

- it does what it says
- I cannot confirm with 100% certainty that it does so in a manner that
will guarantee safety of data, either from internal (i.e. a bug) or
external (i.e. user-error) sources.

It is up to the reader, then, to determine if the potential risks
involved with running the program are acceptable to them; as well as
ensure they're taking proper precautions.

Post by Arlen H. Holder
[...]
- The fear should to be real (i.e., based on actual experience and facts)
- The uncertainty should be real (i.e., based on actual experience & facts)
- The doubt should be real (i.e., based on actual experience & facts)

Actual experience and facts -> "Messing with partitions, and the
filesystems contained therein *can be* and often *is* dangerous".

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Dan Purgert

Post by Arlen H. Holder
Everything you post just wastes everyone's time [...]

In your opinion.

Nope. The facts are obvious.
What actual *value* have you added up until now, Dan Purgert?

HINT: Your penultimate post *does* contain useful facts about filesystems.

Post by Dan Purgert
It is up to the reader, then, to determine if the potential risks
involved with running the program are acceptable to them; as well as
ensure they're taking proper precautions.

this is the third post on this same topic where I have to drop to the
utterly childish level of you, Dan Purgert, to explain the obvious.

What you're trying to tell me is that you're afraid of the monster in the
closet. I get that. You're afraid of something that you (a) don't like, (b)
don't want, and (c) don't understand.

I get that Dan Purgert.

What _you_ don't get is that we're trying to move forward, technically,
with *adult ideas* on the simple topic of booting the Mac to Ubuntu and
then being able to access the iOS, Android, Ubuntu, Windows, and Mac file
system.

Since that (apparently) can be done sans disabling journaling, for you to
incessantly latch on an imaginary monster in the closet, is childish.

Dan Purgert,
Most of us are _not_ children.
We're adults.
We _further_ our combined knowledge.
We use _facts_ to do so.

We don't incessantly sow meaninglessly conjured up FUD like you do.

We're trying to move the ball forward, Dan Purgert.
Unlike you - who can only troll or sow meaningless unsubstantiated FUD.

Post by Dan Purgert
Actual experience and facts -> "Messing with partitions, and the
filesystems contained therein *can be* and often *is* dangerous".

Recommendation to Dan Purgert:
Dear Dan Purgert,
Please stop wasting everyone's time if all you can do is sow FUD.
If you are actually an adult, then you _can_ add adult value.
Please, act like an adult & help move the technical ball forward.
Thank you,

[Arlen H. Holder]

To help everyone, as always, I updated the references list ...
(and fixed a few items in the compilation, but nothing major so
I'll wait to re-publish the details once more information is in
from linux users who can test it on the Mac).

============================================================================
REFERENCES (in alphabetical order):
<http://alt.os.linux.narkive.com/ekHuTNWB/quick-cross-platform-question-on-ubuntu-macos-dual-boot-basics>
<http://askubuntu.com/questions/332315/how-to-read-and-write-hfs-journaled-external-hdd-in-ubuntu-without-access-to-os>
<http://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/0kdhyqga5FQ>
<http://jaysonlorenzen.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/linux-unable-to-write-to-non-journaled-hfsplus-drive/>
<http://lifehacker.com/5702815/the-complete-guide-to-sharing-your-data-across-multiple-operating-systems>
<http://lifewire.com/dual-boot-linux-and-mac-os-4125733>
<http://pastebin.com/W8pfgHRe>
<http://refit.sourceforge.net/info/boot_process.html>
<http://superuser.com/questions/84446/how-to-mount-a-hfs-partition-in-ubuntu-as-read-write>
<http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1420673>
============================================================================

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Arlen H. Holder
To help everyone, as always, I updated the references list ...

In addition to the original goal, with the help of a few people on the
Windows, Mac, and this Linux newsgroup we came up with a half dozen nice
ways to get Windows to read our Linux partitions on dual-boot desktops.

The details for the tribal knowledge archives are in this thread:
<http://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com/EOP3G3NM/quick-assessment-of-3-windows-tools-to-read-write-linux-filesystems-on-dual-boot-desktops>

A quick summary of Windows tools that read Linux dual-boot partitions are:
1. *7-zip*
<http://7-zip.org/download.html
2. *Linux Reader*
<https://www.diskinternals.com/linux-reader/>
3. *Ext2Read*
<https://sourceforge.net/projects/ext2read/>
4. *Ext2Fsd*
<https://sourceforge.net/projects/ext2fsd/files/Ext2fsd/0.69/>
5. *Ext4Explorer*
<https://sourceforge.net/projects/ext4explore/?source=directory>
6. *Paragon*
<https://www.paragon-software.com/business/extfs-for-windows/>

If you know of other Windows tools (particular FOSS) that read from and
write to your Linux partitions on your dual-boot desktop, let us know so
that we all benefit from your knowledge and experience, as always.

[Aragorn]

On Tuesday 25 September 2018 05:38, Arlen H. Holder conveyed the
following to alt.os.linux...

Post by Arlen H. Holder
A quick summary of Windows tools that read Linux dual-boot partitions
are: 1. *7-zip*
<http://7-zip.org/download.html
2. *Linux Reader*
<https://www.diskinternals.com/linux-reader/>
3. *Ext2Read*
<https://sourceforge.net/projects/ext2read/>
4. *Ext2Fsd*
<https://sourceforge.net/projects/ext2fsd/files/Ext2fsd/0.69/>
5. *Ext4Explorer*
<https://sourceforge.net/projects/ext4explore/?source=directory>
6. *Paragon*
<https://www.paragon-software.com/business/extfs-for-windows/>
If you know of other Windows tools (particular FOSS) that read from
and write to your Linux partitions on your dual-boot desktop, let us
know so that we all benefit from your knowledge and experience, as
always.

There is yet another way, but I don't know whether that has already been
addressed anywhere. It's also a little less straightforward than simply
accessing another local filesystem directly.

If we consider a scenario with a dual-boot installation of Microsoft
Windows and GNU/Linux specifically ─ I suppose it would also work on a
Macintosh with macOS installed in dual-boot with either Microsoft
Windows or GNU/Linux ─ and if one of the operating systems has a virtual
machine monitor installed (such as VirtualBox or VMWare), then files
could be shared between both systems by using a network protocol.

I do not know whether macOS supports NFS ─ I believe to have recently
read that it doesn't, but considering that NFS is native to UNIX, it
should normally be supported in macOS as well ─ but for sharing between
Microsoft Windows and GNU/Linux, one can use Samba.

On GNU/Linux, you would install the Samba _server_ package if GNU/Linux
is to host the files to be shared. If the Windows system is the host of
the shared files, then you would use the Samba _client_ package on
GNU/Linux. Most distributions install the client package by default but
not the server package, although it'll always be available from the
repositories.

In the event of macOS, I believe that it does support Samba, but if it
supports NFS for sharing with a GNU/Linux machine ─ regardless of which
of the two is the host system and which is the client system ─ then
that's even better. NFS is a robust and time-proven technology for
sharing files between UNIX machines across the network.

Of course, all of the above excludes the portable devices with Android
or iOS, unless a networked file-sharing client can be installed on those
as well. I have no experience with that, so I don't know. I'm only
mentioning it because you addressed Android and iOS in an earlier post
on this thread.

Mind you, I'm just thinking out loud, and it's still early in the
morning. I still haven't properly woken up. :p

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Aragorn
Of course, all of the above excludes the portable devices with Android
or iOS, unless a networked file-sharing client can be installed on those
as well. I have no experience with that, so I don't know. I'm only
mentioning it because you addressed Android and iOS in an earlier post
on this thread.

Thanks for thinking of additional solutions for how to access the other
desktop operating systems from a boot to Ubuntu.

While we've covered SMB in gory detail on all the platform newsgroups
(Winodws, Android, iOS, and Mac), I don't think the SMB protocol (or any
server:client protocol such as HTTP, FTP, SMB, SSH, etc.) apply in this
situation because we're only booted to one of the three desktop operating
systems at a time.

That is, in the most complex case, we have a triple-boot desktop (or dual
boot), where we boot to Ubuntu and where we want to access the file system
of the non-booted systems's files.

I don't think, offhand anyway, that a server:client setup will work, but I
do agree that in _other_ situations, a server:client setup does do things
that are useful

For example:
a. Run an SMB server on any desktop os and then access via a mobile client
b. Run an FTP server on any mobile os and then access via a desktop client
c. Run an HTTP server on any mobile os and then access via a desktop client

I have done SSH (years ago) where I don't remember the SSH setup direction:
d. Run an FTP server on any desktop os and then access via a mobile client?
d. Run an FTP server on any mobile os and then access via a desktop client?

But note for the client:server setups, _both_ OS's need to be running!

[Aragorn]

On Tuesday 25 September 2018 17:48, Arlen H. Holder conveyed the
following to alt.os.linux...

Post by Arlen H. Holder

Post by Aragorn
Of course, all of the above excludes the portable devices with
Android or iOS, unless a networked file-sharing client can be
installed on those as well. I have no experience with that, so I
don't know. I'm only mentioning it because you addressed Android and
iOS in an earlier post on this thread.

Thanks for thinking of additional solutions for how to access the
other desktop operating systems from a boot to Ubuntu.
While we've covered SMB in gory detail on all the platform newsgroups
(Winodws, Android, iOS, and Mac), I don't think the SMB protocol (or
any server:client protocol such as HTTP, FTP, SMB, SSH, etc.) apply in
this situation because we're only booted to one of the three desktop
operating systems at a time.
[...]
But note for the client:server setups, _both_ OS's need to be running!

Of course ─ that goes without saying. But my approach to the issue was
rather one of making sure that files could be shared, as opposed to
making sure that one operating system could read the filesystems of
another operating systems. Or otherwise put, I was approaching this
from the vantage that getting access to the data would be more important
than the protocol used. ;)

[Arlen H. Holder]

Of course € that goes without saying. But my approach to the issue was
rather one of making sure that files could be shared, as opposed to
making sure that one operating system could read the filesystems of
another operating systems. Or otherwise put, I was approaching this
from the vantage that getting access to the data would be more important
than the protocol used. ;)

Yes but ... we solved _that_ (far easier) problem _years_ ago.

I wrote so many apnotes on that subject that I won't even look them up,
there are so many.

So, yes, it's nice ... but it's so easy ... we solved it long ago.

But it's still nice ... so I appreciate that you're thinking about the
overall solution such that _any_ file on any platform at any time is
available to the user, as it should be.

[Arlen H. Holder]

Post by Arlen H. Holder
But it's still nice ... so I appreciate that you're thinking about the
overall solution such that _any_ file on any platform at any time is
available to the user, as it should be.

BTW, if you (or anyone else) can solve the well-known non-root SMB client
port problem, from Android to Linux and/or Windows smb servers, _that_
would move the ball forward.